Where is my untainted paradise?

@grepman, an implementation of an in-game RNG, is Pseudo-Random.
which means the basic theoretical assumption of "an X-sided fair die has exactly 1:X chance to land on any of the numbers from 1 to X each time, no matter how many times you toss it" - does not hold true.
it can be approximately true if the PRNG is very good (meaning for example, it "starts getting streaky/dependant" after a million consecutive tosses) - but it still isn't fair, by definition.
the die in a PRNG, is not fair.
but the beauty of that is, the actual "unfairness" of it is completely under the implementer's control.

in ARPGs that use RNG for determining drops, map layouts and whatnot, the vast majority of the work is creating an RNG's "biasing system", rather than the RNG itself.
in ARPGs from the kind I want Path Of Exile to be, that biasing system is not necessarily in favour of the player, but it is in favour of what the player does, how he/she handles content which is designed to be difficult for their current state, etc'.
"risk/reward"-based progression in loot, which encourages the player to constantly take risks and push towards the next challenge, while making sure the player can pass the gear checks of a given situation, IF they beat the chain of challenges leading up to it. more than once, if necessary - because RNG can still be bad. but it cannot be "trolling" and frustrating a player which does "meet the requirements", nor can it be just constantly rewarding a player who doesn't.

and tough content gating tougher content, instead of RNG doing it. there is absolutely no reason RNG should gate content directly.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
Isnt untainted paradise fully overrated ?
IGN TylordRampage
Well, that's it then. If i didn't have any self restraint i would tell GGG to get their heads out of their asses and [Removed by Support] for a change.
Last edited by Jared_GGG on Mar 23, 2015, 5:31:10 PM
:/
Last edited by Kenshiro069 on Mar 23, 2015, 5:12:19 PM
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johnKeys wrote:
@grepman, an implementation of an in-game RNG, is Pseudo-Random.
which means the basic theoretical assumption of "an X-sided fair die has exactly 1:X chance to land on any of the numbers from 1 to X each time, no matter how many times you toss it" - does not hold true.
it can be approximately true if the PRNG is very good (meaning for example, it "starts getting streaky/dependant" after a million consecutive tosses) - but it still isn't fair, by definition.
the die in a PRNG, is not fair.
but the beauty of that is, the actual "unfairness" of it is completely under the implementer's control.

yes, Im aware how pseudo random numbers are and can be generated. for our purposes they can be treated as pure true RNG. we arent doing complex cryptography, we dont need a TRNG device.

"

in ARPGs that use RNG for determining drops, map layouts and whatnot, the vast majority of the work is creating an RNG's "biasing system", rather than the RNG itself.
in ARPGs from the kind I want Path Of Exile to be, that biasing system is not necessarily in favour of the player, but it is in favour of what the player does, how he/she handles content which is designed to be difficult for their current state, etc'.
"risk/reward"-based progression in loot, which encourages the player to constantly take risks and push towards the next challenge, while making sure the player can pass the gear checks of a given situation,

so you agree- you want a biased RNG that is carebear to the player and is also smart enough to know his build, whats a risk and whats reward for that build, and give him challenges and gear appropriate to his build, level and all the hoopla.


"
but it cannot be "trolling" and frustrating a player which does "meet the requirements", nor can it be just constantly rewarding a player who doesn't.

so basically, you want to completely ditch the RNG. RNG does not 'troll or frustrate' a player who knows and who embraces RNG. for every 'bad' streak there comes a 'good' streak. again if you played poker you know that sometimes the bad streaks can last dozens of month. yet in the long run (Im talking about >100k hands) RNG normalizes. a player who knows he played well but got rekt by RNG does not quit poker because of frustration or trolling. and if he does, he shouldnt be in poker in first place, because you need discipline in poker.

please understand you cant both have RNG and 'risk/reward' stuff you keep going on about. its either a strict merit system or complete RNG. there is no halfway measure between those two options
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grepman wrote:

yes, Im aware how pseudo random numbers are and can be generated. for our purposes they can be treated as pure true RNG. we arent doing complex cryptography, we dont need a TRNG device.

the last sentence, was actually the most important one in that part of my post.
since a PRNG is all down to implementation, the implementers can do whatever they want with it. they determine the rules the dice "play by".

"

so you agree- you want a biased RNG that is carebear to the player and is also smart enough to know his build, whats a risk and whats reward for that build, and give him challenges and gear appropriate to his build, level and all the hoopla.

the RNG is already biased. that's the point. and it is biased according to how GGG biased it. making that biasing take player actions and/or abstract (tbd) difficulty of content into account, isn't "carebear", doesn't necessarily need to "know" an individual player's build to give a good approximation of a "difficulty score" to a set of modifiers, monster pack compositions etc', and is not a form of "instant gratification".
rather, it is a way of telling the player "go out there and climb the Everest, because there may just be a treasure chest up on the summit, that's bigger than treasure chests which may appear on lower summits".
encouraging the player, to "go for it". in every step of the game. putting an "Everest" each time for the player to climb, and perhaps even providing the climbing tools to scale the next summit, as a possible reward for scaling a current one.
that's a very messy way to say "progression".

"

so basically, you want to completely ditch the RNG.

I'm pretty sure I wrote the opposite, and made it very clear - so I have absolutely no idea how you got that impression.
I want RNG to do, what RNG is meant to do. be used for the parts of the game where it's needed, but not "take it over" and pull all the strings.
as for Poker, it is a game of both luck and skill.
and while I agree even the results of a biased, not-true-random numbers generator may indeed normalize over time - humans aren't machines that can loop around throwing the dice while(notSucceeded).
if something "normalizes" after a streak of 100k bad tosses, and does so regardless if the player is doing well or not - the player would likely just say "fuck this!" and quit. or be stupid like me and just keep throwing the dice while slowly going insane.

"

please understand you cant both have RNG and 'risk/reward' stuff you keep going on about. its either a strict merit system or complete RNG. there is no halfway measure between those two options


just about every single ARPG you can think of, is the "halfway measure" you are looking for. one way or another, they all try to balance between keeping stuff random for the sake of (re)playability/addiction/challenge, and letting a player "feel" his/her skill, determination and performance in the game, are part of the equation.
even Path Of Exile does, but only in very specific spots and not as a general rule.
and many of said spots, are themselves gated behind yet another example of "RNG shouldn't be doing this, because that's not RNG's job" content gating.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
Last edited by johnKeys on Mar 23, 2015, 6:17:09 PM
....
Last edited by VaultOfExcrement on Mar 23, 2015, 6:55:42 PM
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grepman wrote:
yes, I understand probability.

if zana has a set chance of let's say 1 in 100 of opening UP, the chance of you NOT getting it in 350 missions is 3%. that's a pretty decent chance.

couple it with a fact zana's dailies are probably more weighted toward UP than zana in wild, and with me doubting you actually did 350 zana missions...and you get your result.

if you did 200 missions and not 350 missions as you claim, your % of not getting it would be 13%


Shit son, you're calling me a liar aren't you? nice. In truth, 350 missions was rounded down just to be safe, real number was probably over 400.
"
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grepman wrote:
yes, I understand probability.

if zana has a set chance of let's say 1 in 100 of opening UP, the chance of you NOT getting it in 350 missions is 3%. that's a pretty decent chance.

couple it with a fact zana's dailies are probably more weighted toward UP than zana in wild, and with me doubting you actually did 350 zana missions...and you get your result.

if you did 200 missions and not 350 missions as you claim, your % of not getting it would be 13%


Shit son, you're calling me a liar aren't you? nice. In truth, 350 missions was rounded down just to be safe, real number was probably over 400.
something gives me a vibe you might have greatly over-exaggerated, just a hunch.

so to answer your question, I guess yes, I am.
Last edited by grepman on Mar 23, 2015, 6:56:41 PM
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johnKeys wrote:
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grepman wrote:

yes, Im aware how pseudo random numbers are and can be generated. for our purposes they can be treated as pure true RNG. we arent doing complex cryptography, we dont need a TRNG device.

the last sentence, was actually the most important one in that part of my post.
since a PRNG is all down to implementation, the implementers can do whatever they want with it. they determine the rules the dice "play by".

OK, but your issue in specific implementation is, ironically, 'too much RNG' and 'trolling RNG' in places which are governed by pure RNG.

you have an issue that a mirror/eternal can drop to someone at level 1 in mudflats but not for level 100, don't you ? yet it is an example where a complete, fair, RNG is in place. a mirror can drop anywhere anytime (as long as you dont get currency penalized), so it's FAIR.

your real issue here is that you DONT want pure RNG in drops/progression here. you want a 'merit-determined' RNG, which isnt RNG anymore. its not random if it depends on external values.


"

the RNG is already biased. that's the point. and it is biased according to how GGG biased it. making that biasing take player actions and/or abstract (tbd) difficulty of content into account, isn't "carebear", doesn't necessarily need to "know" an individual player's build to give a good approximation of a "difficulty score" to a set of modifiers, monster pack compositions etc', and is not a form of "instant gratification".
rather, it is a way of telling the player "go out there and climb the Everest, because there may just be a treasure chest up on the summit, that's bigger than treasure chests which may appear on lower summits".
encouraging the player, to "go for it". in every step of the game. putting an "Everest" each time for the player to climb, and perhaps even providing the climbing tools to scale the next summit, as a possible reward for scaling a current one.
that's a very messy way to say "progression".

so again, ironically, the RNG is biased because it isnt more biased ? okay, sure. see my last statement.


"

I'm pretty sure I wrote the opposite, and made it very clear - so I have absolutely no idea how you got that impression.
I want RNG to do, what RNG is meant to do. be used for the parts of the game where it's needed, but not "take it over" and pull all the strings.
as for Poker, it is a game of both luck and skill.
and while I agree even the results of a biased, not-true-random numbers generator may indeed normalize over time - humans aren't machines that can loop around throwing the dice while(notSucceeded).
if something "normalizes" after a streak of 100k bad tosses, and does so regardless if the player is doing well or not - the player would likely just say "fuck this!" and quit. or be stupid like me and just keep throwing the dice while slowly going insane.

and this is why I said people who do this do not understand the concept of RNG. like Ive said, you dont go playing poker even if youre best player in the world, thinking you wont have bad streaks even if you play perfectly. understanding, accepting RNG and being calm and possessing discipline, are paramount to working with it.

you win some, you lose some.

but since this generation of gamers has a serious case of ADD and instant gratification syndrome, they dont want to 'lose some' in a game where they play perfectly. no one actually wants fair RNG. all they want to do is 'win' all the time. and when you dont win, its 'troll RNG'.


"

just about every single ARPG you can think of, is the "halfway measure" you are looking for. one way or another, they all try to balance between keeping stuff random for the sake of (re)playability/addiction/challenge, and letting a player "feel" his/her skill, determination and performance in the game, are part of the equation.
even Path Of Exile does, but only in very specific spots and not as a general rule.
and many of said spots, are themselves gated behind yet another example of "RNG shouldn't be doing this, because that's not RNG's job" content gating.

no, its not a half measure. most of ARPGs have very specific drops, and RNG is actually quite minimal. Id say D3ROS right now has very little RNG besides some unique droprates. everything is bracketed to specifically design a system that caters to player and GUARD them against bad RNG

what you're talking about is artificial variation, not pure RNG

by arguing that RNG is inherently biased, you are trying to justify the real problem you have with it- you dont like very large variance RNG in ARPG games. some people call it 'gambling' in spite, not realizing that gambling is actually very fair in the long run as the long as the house sets fair rules.
you just cant approach gambling in the sense of 'I will win here and now'. the odds arent against you in PoE like in casinos. you just need patience, discipline and understanding of RNG.

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