I'm Surprised to Find that Melee is Easy

unless you are evasion-based with Ondar's Guile and whatnot, I strongly recommend taking Unwavering Stance. no stun equals a lot less desync, especially if you do your best to avoid the "usual culprits" like small objects and doorways.

other than that, please show your gear.
if you honestly don't see a clear disadvantage compared to playing ranged, you must have some crazy, crazy items.

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johnKeys wrote:

you are saying that if my build is level 85.01, 4.995 Exalts and I can solo-clear a white Bazaar, Precinct, Gorge or Plateau in 37.45783 seconds, while yours is level 84.76, costs 5.117 Exalts (or even self-found ffs), clears Gorge in 38.123 seconds, never did a Precinct, but is capable of defeating Jungle fkn Valley Weaver and Torture Chamber squid with fkn extra damage mods ===> I'm so much more fkn "end-game" than you, right?

Stop trolling the shit out of me. Seriously.

There are no arbitrary numbers - these are guidelines for progress that are commonly understood. I give you 5 exalts (cheap endgame), can you chain 76+ maps without deaths - stop pretending there is some rule about 5.01 exalts or whatever and under or over - then it's a good and viable build. You're a fucking 5-year old kid I swear.

The biggest issue I have with you is you just don't understand the endgame and instead troll and troll and troll. Here are some questions that are relevant to this discussion ->

- How much investment does it take to make a viable Tornado Shot/Cyclone/Reave character that clears 76+? How easy is it in a new temporary league starting from scratch to reach those levels? How big is the gap between the build in a new league and the build in an established league? How big is the gap between 5L and 6L?
- What level of investment do I need to reliably complete Palace Dominus/Shrine Piety deathless on either character?
- Which character can I have the safest experience to level 100 with assuming suitable upgrades along the way?
- What level of investment do I need to reliably down Atziri?

These are questions of endgame which you have 0 experience and knowledge of and these are the questions that ultimately determine how viable a build is and is how these builds need to be balanced.

look Chunda, I'll try one last time so please try to get it.

"end-game" is an abstract concept.
"viability" is an abstract concept which needs a lot of additional parameters to be comparable. simply put, you need to define an apple precisely as an apple, and an orange precisely as an orange, before you can compare "viability" of two apples or two oranges. and you can't compare an apple to an orange.

you trying to put absolute numbers around all that, just crit me with a 20q stupidity skill for 9999 Physical+Chaos Damage, ignoring my Immortal Call, and I had to Alt-f4.

so what you have to understand are a couple of things:

1) for some people, builds aren't measured in "Exalts", nor do they have cool names like "Fakener", "Shatterchuck" or "Rainbownuke".
2) for most people who don't sheep much, "end-game" is what they define "end-game" to be, for themselves.
3) never present an opinion as a "fact" or a "definition" that's "agreed upon". it's not. it's your opinion. one I disagree with.
4) trying to put up numbers around all that and lecture to someone "y u no end-game?", or saying "u no nothin because u no end game", is putting the stupidity gem into a maxed-out 6-link, for maximum DPS.
please don't hit me with it again.

This thread motivates me to make a melee char next temp leagues. Now if only it would come sooner.

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johnKeys wrote:

so what you have to understand are a couple of things:

1) for some people, builds aren't measured in "Exalts", nor do they have cool names like "Fakener", "Shatterchuck" or "Rainbownuke".
2) for most people who don't sheep much, "end-game" is what they define "end-game" to be, for themselves.
3) never present an opinion as a "fact" or a "definition" that's "agreed upon". it's not. it's your opinion. one I disagree with.
3) trying to put up numbers around all that and lecture to someone "y u no end-game?", or saying "u no nothin because u no end game", is putting the stupidity gem into a maxed-out 6-link, for maximum DPS.

First, after 3 comes 4. Not 3.

Second, you are a very very special player. Very special. So much so that this playstyle you describe isn't actually relevant to the majority of the playerbase sadly :/ My "opinions" are not opinions but general consensus on endgame (high-level mapping viability) which is what this thread is about.

Third, you can't answer my questions about what the general consensus calls the endgame. You can only talk about your endgame which for most people is a stage they simply skip over.

You should prefix stuff with "For me playing in low-maps with not as much damage/risk and not as much requirement for investment"

End-game viable= clearing 76+map without dying in +-10 minutes
- for achive that your char is usually 85+ (90% complete)

From 20 people, 19 will tell you that, last one is you John :)

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Chundadragon wrote:

You should prefix stuff with "For me playing in low-maps"

for me, playing in everything. low maps. high maps. mid maps. unique maps I can get my hands on. solo. party. self-found. minor trading (buying). normal content. cruel content. merciless content. races. PvP...

a good "prefix", don't you think?

and I just fixed that little typo, which bothered you so much.

now let's get back on topic, where I think we both agree melee is far more demanding than ranged, caster, or summoner.
and no, I don't need a "high map" to reach that conclusion. I can happily run into 72 Jungle Valley spider or a 68 Museum trio and get my ass kicked, or get blown up by Dominus in Cruel HC soloselffoundgodhelpme, just as well.

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johnKeys wrote:

and no, I don't need a "high map" to reach that conclusion. I can happily run into 72 Jungle Valley spider or a 68 Museum trio and get my ass kicked, or get blown up by Dominus in Cruel HC soloselffoundgodhelpme, just as well.

Trouble is you can't. If I put my johnKeys hat on:

- Facebreakers one-shot everything/afk up to Merciless then declines a little but shines very well endgame once block and uniques come out.

- Summoner sucks dick until merc then gets better.

- Casters are great to level and then declines and then gets a lot better.

- RT Buzzsaw shines in early maps and then declines.

Everything is irrelevant before end-game because it's so skewed and unbalanced. I actually think melee is amazing to level especially at level 50 with a Mightflay and DS Splash/etc.

viability has so many faces around here

day ago someone told me that 'explosive arrow build' consists of 6L +3gem +arrow bow, +arrow quiver and +curse amulet as a mere minimum making burn builds expensive and difficult to gear to..

people have different standards around here - that is to you both John and Chunda

and while both of you think that your version is the valid and popular ('consensus') one - it isnt

you both hang out with people alike to you and take part in activities - understandably - similar to each other. thus enforcing the notion of your vision being the 'normal' one.

look around, this game has so many faces that im closer than ever to agreeing with John



as for the melee part - as long as desync == hitting air == no damage == death melee is crap and can only be fixed by slowly removing it from the game by introducing more and more ranged-melee like ST or reave

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sidtherat wrote:

day ago someone told me that 'explosive arrow build' consists of 6L +3gem +arrow bow, +arrow quiver and +curse amulet as a mere minimum making burn builds expensive and difficult to gear to..

You are definitely getting trolled to shit here. EA works very well without any of that and burn builds are still stronk with 1 ex.

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sidtherat wrote:

and while both of you think that your version is the valid and popular ('consensus') one - it isnt

Mine is buddy in terms of mapping. Watch streams, look at the ladder, those thousands of people didn't get there farming docks. Look at build guides - they all want to display themselves in 76+ maps.