Vengeance, Riposte late game? seems weaker...

So I've been using Vengeance and Riposte for a long time but noticed now at level 81 the damage for them isn't that great, between 3 and 5k but they also don't trigger a lot. Only have it linked to melee phys all gems around level 18. It seems I might better use the 4L for more defensive option, like another cwdt. Maybe riposte is better with really high block I only have 32%. Also, vengeance seems to trigger a lot on ranged mobs but doesn't seem to hit them, instead hits the mobs closer which I don't really need as I'm killing those already.

Anyway, just looking for opinions. What other options have you chosen?
Vengeance, Riposte, Reckoning +
- CoH, Curse (2nd Curse, inc.Dur, Blind)
- Stun, End.ChargeOnStun (melee phys Damage, LgoH, Blind)
- Culling Strike, Cast on Melee Kill
- inc. Crit, PCoC, Blind, CoC+anything

Counter Gems can be pretty powerful if you build around them. I admit they might not be made for insane DPS on their own though.

Ranged Monsters tend to attack quite fast so the naturally have an increased chance to proc counters.
- get cold damage (Hatred, Herald of Ice, added damage mods etc) Crit Chance + Prolif + Duration (+ inc AoE) = Freeze ranged mobs

Of Course high block chance helps a lot with Riposte and Reckoning. You could also link two Vengeance or slot multiple setups in your equip. The chance to trigger is calculated for both, but only one can trigger at the same time.
The damage is lackluster, but they can be nice utility.
yeah those skills suck in late (in terms of damage) game for a number of reasons.

1 they have a fixed proc rate with a cap so they are impossible to scale well for damage.
2 they take up gem slots and unless you are a two hander you will be limited to a 4l.

they are utility skills now , nothing more.
I have yet to be convinced to use them on my melee char and your not helping me with your post


My thought were something along the line of vengeance + blind + lifeleech of lgoh.
counter attack gems were a broken promise that was to 'fix melee'

just drop one or two into an empty slot but each time you stumble upon an idea youd like to use instead - do it

Cast when Stunned on a build that gets stunned from time to time works better for me than even 4L Vengeance on a 500pdps maul char..
Thanks for the feedback on this it gives me something to experiment with.

I did enjoy these for a good while it's just that once your own dps gets up there and in harder maps, more defensive options seem necessary for me. They are good utility, like Vengeance clean up some trash just at edge of aoe. I'm going to try to give them one more skill gems see if that helps otherwise, start trying other combos.
Yes it's not a lot of DPS but on a one-attack-skill melee character I have room for all three counter-attacks + 2 CWDT setups and a curse and movement skill. I suppose for someone who does not want to have a lot of buttons to push counter-attacks are a pretty good way to fill sockets. Example in current gear section of my lazy pally guide here (scroll down a lot).
Riposte is the strongest dual-weapon attack in the game, if you combine it with status effects (like herald of ash or pure ice or lightning damage) you can use it to disappear groups or shock-freeze bosses.

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