rebalancing crit

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pneuma wrote:
Okay, I finally get it now.

You guys are taking buffs and nerfs personally. Like... you actually feel like your build being nerfed is an affront against you playing the game, or people asking for buffs are just asking for them so that they can "win".


This is EXACTLY what is wrong with the PoE community and why it has become toxic.

This trend can be traced back to when Atziri and Uber Atziri were introduced. Making gated content with very desirable rewards introduces jealousy and envy -> resulting in crys for nerfs / buffs.

If Atziri and Uber Atziri had not been introduced the past 12 months nerf cycle would not have been as drastic.

Unfortunately seems people think the more threads they make the more GGG will listen and eventually nerf/buff. Which seems to be the case.

Based on trends in forum QQ I forecasting upcoming nerfs to crit, Tornado Shot, Ondar's Guile.

For balancing crit -> I think easiest way is to increase the reflect % by much more and make reflect mods more common on rare and in maps. That is a quick solution to increase the downside risk of using crit.
Last edited by Ceryneian on Feb 11, 2015, 8:45:35 AM
If they haven't nerfed TS and KB yet is because a lot of people ragequitted with the last nerfs and they can't just lose the rest of the remaining playerbase that is playing the unnerfed = fun skills lel.
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So your argument boils down to an dressed up ad hominem followed by a dressed up "no u" ?

k

Not even a little bit!
You have an objective, fundamental disconnect with the game that the devs are making, and it's why there's no conversation to make.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a character that lasts forever, but that's not the game that GGG is making. It's not an ad hominem to say, "Sorry, we don't serve cake here, this is a tire shop."

GGG does not care about Standard, they care about the temporary leagues. The game is balanced on them, and any changes that go back toward the "forever" leagues are purely collateral.

There is no concept of "nerfing a character" to GGG. A character gets old and dies in the temporary league, then the world is changed (things are buffed/nerfed), and new characters in new temporary leagues are simply different. Builds themselves are only nerfed if you take a historical view (a.k.a. "this build used to be comparatively better"), but never characters.

---

Ex. When I say something like, "GGG should nerf TS", I mean that new characters in the next temporary league should want to plan around and design for using bow skills other than TS. I don't mean that characters currently using and enjoying TS should be deleted.
Last edited by pneuma on Feb 11, 2015, 10:46:15 AM
i dont mind crit having the best overall damage, what puzzles me is why it olso has 100% chance to proc elemental ailments or the hability to refill flasks.

crit should be all about the damage and nothing else.
self found league fan

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/324242/page/1

Yeah, back on topic...

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caboom wrote:
i dont mind crit having the best overall damage, what puzzles me is why it olso has 100% chance to proc elemental ailments or the hability to refill flasks.

crit should be all about the damage and nothing else.

This is how I feel as well.

Crit should be the best way to scale damage, bar none. The highest damage in the game should come from crit.

Getting everything and the kitchen sink alongside damage just seems excessive. Elemental effects stand out the most, since there's a lot of infrastructure already built up to support "chance to elemental effect", and all of that is just ignored when crit comes into play. Given how strong the ailments are, they should require investment, not just be given out freely while you're trying to max out some other stat.

Surgeon's similarly seems excessive when you're already getting the best damage in the game. You would think that the characters with the highest damage would not also have some of the best defenses, but that's not the case currently.
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Okay, I finally get it now.

You guys are taking buffs and nerfs personally. Like... you actually feel like your build being nerfed is an affront against you playing the game, or people asking for buffs are just asking for them so that they can "win".

This is EXACTLY what is wrong with the PoE community and why it has become toxic.


Except the assumption here is that players like myself even use crit for their current builds (I don't)

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This trend can be traced back to when Atziri and Uber Atziri were introduced. Making gated content with very desirable rewards introduces jealousy and envy -> resulting in crys for nerfs / buffs.


The problem here is everyone thinks its unfair that XXX can do YYY when they can't. This is because of multiple reasons, they just blame any of them except what truly matters, which is either a) lazy player or b) someone that doesn't know better.

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If Atziri and Uber Atziri had not been introduced the past 12 months nerf cycle would not have been as drastic.


Agreed, unfortunately some people seem to think that atziri and uber atziri is THE (only) endgame, therefore the whole game must be balanced around it.


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Based on trends in forum QQ I forecasting upcoming nerfs to crit, Tornado Shot, Ondar's Guile.


I've yet to see an ondar's discussion, I think its fine, you typically have to invest 5 or more points to get it, which makes it worth it.

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For balancing crit -> I think easiest way is to increase the reflect % by much more and make reflect mods more common on rare and in maps. That is a quick solution to increase the downside risk of using crit.


You only hurt weaker builds with this change, the best builds use vaal pact or uber atziri gloves, this change would be interesting to see, but we'd see a lot more QQ around these here parts.
https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285

FeelsBadMan

Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF.
Last edited by goetzjam on Feb 11, 2015, 12:09:26 PM
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GGG does not care about Standard, they care about the temporary leagues. The game is balanced on them, and any changes that go back toward the "forever" leagues are purely collateral.


They used to, but that was a statement made during the first temporary leagues. They basically said they made the game for the majority of their players, which are non-hardcore players and most of them play in standard. Of course this was more aimed at the discussion hardcore vs. softcore balancing.

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The problem here is everyone thinks its unfair that XXX can do YYY when they can't. This is because of multiple reasons, they just blame any of them except what truly matters, which is either a) lazy player or b) someone that doesn't know better.


Actually there are some legitimate complains there. Victor presented in detail the issues he add on beating Uberatziri with a 2h-melee build and clearly pointed out the flaws this playstyle has compared to the mostly ranged crit based chars that beat Uberatziri.

I would highly question if everybody complaining that his build can't do X is just lazy or doesn't know better. First some of those posts are written in great detail and offer a lot of information, which definitly isn't something a lazy person would do. They often also give a great insigth in how they tried to address certain issues they have, which also makes it likely that they do know it very well.

Of course people normally complain about their build... everything else would also be highly questionable, since they would like the required knowledge to talk about it, if they don't play that build. There might be a bunch of stupid posts that just make some random complaints and QQ a bit, but there is actually a not irrelevant amount of people that give actual criticism that is totally valid.

Just saying that complains are basically always created by a lack of knowledge or lazyness is very disrespectful towards the people that try to give valid feedback and one of the reason the number of those people isn't higher.
Previous statement I made:

Spoiler
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The problem here is everyone thinks its unfair that XXX can do YYY when they can't. This is because of multiple reasons, they just blame any of them except what truly matters, which is either a) lazy player or b) someone that doesn't know better.



"
Actually there are some legitimate complains there. Victor presented in detail the issues he add on beating Uberatziri with a 2h-melee build and clearly pointed out the flaws this playstyle has compared to the mostly ranged crit based chars that beat Uberatziri.

I would highly question if everybody complaining that his build can't do X is just lazy or doesn't know better. First some of those posts are written in great detail and offer a lot of information, which definitly isn't something a lazy person would do. They often also give a great insigth in how they tried to address certain issues they have, which also makes it likely that they do know it very well.

Of course people normally complain about their build... everything else would also be highly questionable, since they would like the required knowledge to talk about it, if they don't play that build. There might be a bunch of stupid posts that just make some random complaints and QQ a bit, but there is actually a not irrelevant amount of people that give actual criticism that is totally valid.

Just saying that complains are basically always created by a lack of knowledge or lazyness is very disrespectful towards the people that try to give valid feedback and one of the reason the number of those people isn't higher.


That is one build and 1 really difficult boss that forces out playstyle and defenses YOU DONT NEED IN THE REST OF THE GAME. I don't know how much clearer I can make that.

While I value his feedback because he actually did the work, if you read his post he was told (as we all were, in some way or another, basically hearsay) that GGG did the boss with a 2 handed "melee" build without mirrored or legacy gear. While we don't have proof that they did it, it isn't required either.

Overall discussing that this or that needs nerfed because it can "trivialize" uber atziri is completely bullshit. People like HvC crafted a build (with expensive ass items) that can do uber atziri in bloodlines. Now people want mjolner, surgeons, crit, ect nerfed because its "unfair" that he is killing uber in bloodlines. I would say to those people YOU DO IT or do it with another build, then provide feedback. Why nerf a build because 1 person out of how many is doing uber atziri in bloodlines? Doesn't that sound a little dumb in terms of OVERALL balance? Do people want NO ONE to do uber atziri?

Its just confusing to me. Yes I know 2 handed is going to struggle, because 2 handed LACKS the defensive nature of what HvC has, they can't use shields for max res. In a fight that either requires max res increased or amazing positioning and dodging the one that is "easier" will always pro-val.

To me its disgusting to think that people thing GGG should balance the gems, items, tree around Uber Atziri when the vast majority of PoE players will never attempt to do her, hell if I had to bet the majority of players will never do REGULAR Atziri.
https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285

FeelsBadMan

Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF.
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goetzjam wrote:
People like HvC crafted a build (with expensive ass items) that can do uber atziri in bloodlines. Now people want mjolner, surgeons, crit, ect nerfed because its "unfair" that he is killing uber in bloodlines.

[citation needed] so hard on this.

You are imagining that people are doing it because they dislike or are jealous of other players. That's not reality, it's imagination (and maybe even projection).

I also see no evidence that points to current nerf suggestions being purely Uber Atziri based. While it is true that Uber Atziri is kind of a special thing that has builds specifically tailored for it, most people are talking about non-UberAtziri gameplay that is suffering from various overly-centralizing game mechanics.
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pneuma wrote:
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goetzjam wrote:
People like HvC crafted a build (with expensive ass items) that can do uber atziri in bloodlines. Now people want mjolner, surgeons, crit, ect nerfed because its "unfair" that he is killing uber in bloodlines.

[citation needed] so hard on this.

You are imagining that people are doing it because they dislike or are jealous of other players. That's not reality, it's imagination (and maybe even projection).

I also see no evidence that points to current nerf suggestions being purely Uber Atziri based. While it is true that Uber Atziri is kind of a special thing that has builds specifically tailored for it, most people are talking about non-UberAtziri gameplay that is suffering from various overly-centralizing game mechanics.


Are you suggesting I need to dig through this and the surgeons thread post and find all the people complaining about uber atziri and these changes? Hell one guy said that uber atziri is poe's endgame. It might be considered that for a very small fraction of people, but we all know it isn't the endgame for 99.99% of people.

Tons of builds shit on regular maps (and some of those people calling for nerfs too), but because builds like HvC's specifically also shit on uber atziri its just not acceptable to leave it possible in the game. He said it himself flameblast is more fun to play in maps then his uber atziri killer, I don't doubt that. He plans on doing a cycloner with the axe he got as well.

Saying I am imagining this is incorrect, i don't have that good of an imagination, although I appreciate the complement. I can cite many sources on these threads or you could search for yourself.

People want everything to be as equally shitty, no don't bring things up to pair, lets drag the top down. How does that even make since? Legatus made a good point that skill gems like viper strike need buffed, you can't simply nerf every other gem to make it as shitty as viper strike.

Without HvC's build that utilized these key uniques, flask, ect uber atziri wouldn't be killed in bloodlines. That is a fact, if you would like to prove me wrong, by all means make a build that doesn't utilize the same items or principles of that build, until then this statement is acceptable as fact.
https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285

FeelsBadMan

Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF.

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