Look GGG, another armor thread

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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

The point is Armour is a noob trap. Correction, investing into Armour is a noob trap.

Just to reiterate; Legacy Coil + Taste of Hate + Topaz = 59.5% Physical Damage Reduction of the purest most immutable nature. (Equating to as much as 88k Armour in some situations)
I am well aware of the fact that armour becomes exponentially more effective as hits get smaller. However, you don't actually need 90% Damage Reduction against stuff that you can mitigate so easily. When you do actually need it, Armour becomes less and less reliable. This is where an immutable defence mechanism(s) shines.

Even with great gear and flasks achieving >40k Armour requires heavy investment (Can add on another 20k with Taste of Hate to reach equivalence with Current Gen Coil example). Care to know what one could invest into instead? Anything.
One could take more life nodes, more dps nodes, more block nodes, Defensive Keystones, aura nodes, flask nodes, endurance/frenzy/power charges, skill effect duration, soul of steel*, dps auras/heralds, movement speed (that armour roll on your belt could/should be movement speed too), the list goes on.....
Efficient use of resources is paramount.

you make fair points. I agree and dont agree with the noob trap idea. I think going Iron Reflexes + Unwavering + spending a ton on armour nodes is a noob trap for sure. Back in open beta when they changed the Ranger start IR was the meta, but I tried out Evasion because they changed it, so lets see what it does. On its own it was shit but hybrid armour + evasion.. jesus, just so much better than the IR chars Id been playing. Entropic avoidance, for my tastes, just seems so critical to melee. Its basically flask time, like Colonade Brutus slams twice in a row sometimes for example, IR thats a death sentence, with Evasion youll never get hit by both and that second one that misses gives you time to slam a flask and be back to full for the next one that lands. Removing your vulnerability to burst damage like that is just so good for melee. I feel like thats the problem LostKavi is having, full pure armour is just so dangerous, from my experience.

Ive never played full armour on its own since then, so maybe I just havent tried really op full on armour builds that exist, I have to leave that out there but from my experience... its really bad man, really bad. Unless you are aegis, if you are aegis high block then its sick.





But I do stack armour on some builds, and it works, it can work better than coil acro builds. Like armour doesnt work when you need it, but when is this? Maze Vaal slams? Palace Dominus slams? Nothing you get hit by actually hits anywhere near hard enough to completely negate armours benefit. Theres 3 basic forms of mitigating phys

Arctic armour = flat # reduced
endurance = flat % reduced

so arctic armour doesnt scale with damage at all, making it amazing at small mitigation and awful at large mitigation, endurance scales exactly with damage so its awful vs small hits and amazing vs large ones. Armour comes down the middle of them, it scales with damage but not in a linear fashion like endurance, its amazing vs mid sized hits but youll always need to layer it with one or both of the above. Coil is % like endurance obviously.


Decent amounts of armour backed up with a lot of % mitigation (endu, coil, taste, soul) in my experience does a lot against physical im maps, the actual phys you get hit with, bone rhoas, bears, bonestalkers etc. Problem is if you sacrificed evasion to get it you are fucked because of burst and projectile damage. Walk into a room full of extra phys blue titty spitters in an extra damage as cold gmp lvl78 map with IR instead of Ondars... ya good luck with that.



Ill give you an example of a build where I stack armour like this

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgIBAF4B5wUtCC4KmxLhE0wTyRQgFE0X4RiRGY4ZtBpVG8gb-iP2Jd8m-CfVLOkwdzB8Mfs26DpSPfxDMUd-Sn1Nkk4yUEdTu1W1VvpXDVhjWf5fP2BLYSFkUmSjZU1lp2XwZ6Bul3TtdU5313h6eOt67311fyt_44IHhNmE74dqh3aMz419kc6bjZ7NouqkGaaNpzCpJ6mUrlCv67Ysu-28n702vqe_1cEEwaPEWMrT0iHTftaK2XzdDeJh45_kUecK7YPvDu968kHynPZI97746_xL_MX-a_66


leveled this over the last week, just to try out cyclone and 2 handers given the new changes etc. I read vince and victor dooms cyclone threads but I didnt look at their trees till Id leveled this one, wanted to try hybrid without outside bias from other ideas. Defensively this is whats going on..

6 endurance charges + soul of steel = 28% physical resist
10k armour (25k with granite up)
10k evasion (with ondars guile)
5,500 life
390something life regen

I can still use my rumis and/or taste of hate with this but theyre not needed, its overkill tanky already. I have four 6link legacy coils so Ive played a lot of those builds, an awful lot, coil + acro, its amazing, but its not quite as tanky as this setup, of that Im confident. This deals with phys better, for sure, and 6 endu with a lvl20 codt inc duration IC is an extremely long ic up time, I have echo endu cry and am almost always at 6 charges again before ic even wears off. With so much evasion it rarely even triggers but its there just in case. This is with a 2 handed build, you could do this with a 1 hander and a saffells frame or a 1400 defense shield with block etc for even more defense.


imo investing in armour on this build was worth it, because I didnt do it at the expense of layers, I combine it with ondars to nullify projectile attacks, evasion to nullify burst damage, % phys resist to cushion massive hits, the defense layers account for armours weak points. Iron Reflexes just helps armour be armour without dealing with its problems, same way acro is just even more avoidance without answering what happens when you actually get hit with evasion.

I posted this in another thread last night, obviously we know estimated char sheet evasion and phys reduction are just estimates against average mob of your level blah blah, but they show the formula in action. I have 10k evasion which = 46% chance to evade. If I swap gears and get 20k evasion it shows a 60% chance to evade... double my evasion, doesnt even come close to doubling my chance to evade. With 10k armour and my endus up Im showing between 70-80% phys damage reduction, if I boost to 20k armour I doubt I'd even hit 90%. So for me, that is the noob trap, at least if you have other options, its thinking stacking tons of one or the other is better. If 10k evasion is doing the majority of what 20k does and 10k armour does the majority of what 20k does then why stack all of one when you can get 10k of both and be an effective armour AND an effective evasion char at the same time? Thats essentially what coil allows you to do and why probably 50% of my endgame builds revolve around coil + acro. That setup has more avoidance than hybrid like this but less mitigation, its give and take, but Im replacing a -60 resist penalty + 80 life for 100 life + tri resist, which lets me get accuracy, attack speed, strength etc suffixes on slots like rings, gloves, amulet or whatever, I could still effectively stack block, use rumis etc which acrobatics would hinder. Im absolutely sold on both methods, Im smashing down palace maps on easymode repeat with both of them.

A valid reason to not get both is that you cant stack 10k of both with 6 endu charges effectively if you are a caster, and you cant do it effectively with the majority of bow characters, you can only do efficiently as a melee character in the majority of cases because of the placement of the required nodes. So the way I see it being ranged forces you into lesser defenses and armour is fine to invest in as long as its part of a package that both reenforces armour and makes up for its weak spots, thats my take on armour and general defenses and why I say what I say. But when we are talking about stacking just armour eithout evasion of course I agree, why would you do it? Youre better just stacking life and damage like victor doom (unless aegis).



I think I agree with what everyone is saying, the reasoning being presented im fully with, but I think Im also looking at different setups where the same conclusions dont apply, at least in my opinion, and I think GGG are looking at different setups too. They probably rejoice that IR + US is a really bad choice now, because they had 6 months of "omg nerf IR its too op omg" on the forums and theyve barely touched it, the dex nerf was pretty insignificant, it went from brokenly op to dire turd purely based on the communities knowledge base growing. They just sat there and said no, not gonna nerf it, QQ all you want we know its not that great, the problem is with the meta you guys have developed on your own. Thats what they are doing with armour right now, just sitting back refusing to buff it more than they already have because they know its good just the way it is. Theyre not going to make it brokenly good just because we as a larger community are not using it to its potential.

Haven't read most of the thread but what it comes down to is this:

block and evasion both provide mitigation %, where you take no damage.

So in terms of damage mitigation would you rather

A) take physical attack damage 25% of the time (max regular block for example)
B) take physical damage 25% of the time - evasion rating chance (so max block + some evasion)
C) take less physical damage 50% or so around 90% of the time (armor with a little bit of evasion\block)

Easy answer i'd rather not take any of the damage or if I do 25% or less of the time is always going to be better.

In addition with things like Immortal Call, you can completely negate the physical damage for a period of time, sometimes many many seconds, with increased duration, some points on tree, ect. This makes armor completely unnecessary or useless when you have armor.

The main thing is armor does NOTHING vs spell damage, not a thing. With block you can invest into spell block with a few choice unqiues, if your investing into evasion you can grab acro\phase and get some spell dodge that way.

Either way investing into armor is completely useless vs spells\elemental damage, while investing into either block or evasion (assuming you go acro+phase) allows you to mitigate spell\elemental damage.

Hi

Armour needs more passive nodes like unyielding and implicit max resists/resists on armour gear, also armour could have its max defense increased...again.

Side note: I also played melee since CB and have in the last league rampage finally realized that MELEE SUCKS by yourself and in a party with one ranged person, it sucks even more. My ranged friend would leave the last vestiges of a mob for my melee to clean up. So how can melee be fixed?

cheers

"

Ceryneian wrote:

Unwavering Stance removes your ability to evade, it is meant to function with armor builds. I don't see how it can be defined as a "strength" keystone. Iron Grip is an example of a strength keystone.

At this point, I'm not sure it's worth trying to continue this conversation. I really don't feel like explaining meta-design concepts, so I'll just say these few things and leave it at that...

Are CI and GR not int keystones? They're in the int tree, and they align with int's identity.

Are Acro and Ondar's not dex keystones? They're in the dex tree, and they align with dex's identity.

How then is Unwavering not a str keystone? It is in the str tree, and it aligns with str's identity.

Identity has nothing to do with "it doesn't say str in its rules text"

"

IR converts all your evasion to armor, so by definition - it is an armor keystone. Simply getting this node allows ANY armor character to use both Jade + Granite flasks and Grace + Determination. Jade + Granite is a massive boost because they each have 3K but can also roll mods for % increased evasion and % increased armor which boosts your base armor.

IR is in the dex tree, near str/dex. It is aligned with a str/dex identity, but it does not do something to armour; it does something to evasion. It changes evasion into something else, and evasion is aligned with a dex identity. Sure, it changes EV into AR, but that means it changes a dex-aligned mechanic into str/dex-aligned; there is no getting rid of that dex alignment.

AR is the only base defense that lacks a Mara/str tree native "makes pure AR build possible" keystone. It does not matter how great of a use you can put IR to; it is NOT a pure str, pure AR keystone.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

Armour may be shit on its own, but so is ev and es. You know whats even more shit than those defensive options? Every other defensive option, you always have to layer.

The only issue I take with this (out of your whole post) is that EV has Acro&Ondar's, and ES has CI&GR. What does AR have? There are no keystones to enable a pure AR build, like there are for EV and ES; there are only supplementary items, which EV and ES have as well..

Certainly, AR can use endurance charges.. but so too can EV use frenzy charges (to attack faster and thus manually dodge sooner), or ES use power charges (to crit more often and relieve hit-pressure via "a good offense"). Okay, I'm stretching it a bit with the last one ^-^ but still...

You know why that is?
1. Because EV/Acro/Ondars < physical spells. Also < RNG. Also < RT. Numerous other things that can instantly cause the death of your character SIMPLY because it EXISTS when you are evasion based. These mechanics COMPLETELY bypass your entire character's defensive option. You are wearing nothing but a tabula when you fight perpetus.
2. Because ES/CI/GR gets stunned. It gets shocked. It gets frozen. It gets ignited. All things that can chain to the death of your character simply because it EXISTS when you are ES. You have 600-800 HP when you are being frozen, stunned, shocked, and ignited. Do you know how long a 6k freeze lasts against 600 HP? A long fucking time.

You know what mechanic completely shits on armor or bypasses its defense entirely?
Nothing. You are ALWAYS mitigating damage and status effects when you have that well-rounded defense that includes high armor and resists.

Does that make armor better than coil/MoM/flasks? No, you're right about that. But it doesn't make evasion or ES better than those things either. You want to take issue to GGG about how bad armor is, compare it to those defensive options, not to EV or ES.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

At this point, I'm not sure it's worth trying to continue this conversation. I really don't feel like explaining meta-design concepts, so I'll just say these few things and leave it at that...

You seem to have forgotten how you started this conversation.


First you said:

"

CanHasPants wrote:

There are no keystones to enable a pure AR build

To which I pointed out that Unwavering Stance and Iron Reflexes are keystones specifically designed for armor.


Then you say:

"

CanHasPants wrote:

IR an Armour keystone? Hardly. I'm talking about pure int/ES (CI) or pure dex/EV (Acro). IR is a dex keystone.

Unwavering is a str keystone, but it's functionally more supportive, alike what GR or Ondar's are for CI or Acro. It's not quite the same for AR as CI/GR or Acro/Ondar's are for ES or EV.

To which I pointed out that Iron Reflexes BY DEFINITION - is an armor keystone. It converts evasion rating to armor rating. It boosts armor. It is an armor keystone.

There is no such thing as a "dex" keystone. IR is not a dex keystone.

Unwavering Stance is NOT a strength keystone, like Iron Grip, it is a keystone meant to function with armor because it removes your ability to evade.


Now you go on to say:

"

CanHasPants wrote:

Are CI and GR not int keystones? They're in the int tree, and they align with int's identity.

Are Acro and Ondar's not dex keystones? They're in the dex tree, and they align with dex's identity.

How then is Unwavering not a str keystone? It is in the str tree, and it aligns with str's identity.

Identity has nothing to do with "it doesn't say str in its rules text"

No, just because they are in the int side does not mean they are int keystones. What does Acro have to do with Dexterity? Nothing. What does GR have to do with Int? Nothing.

I am interested in hearing your logic because this is the first time I have come across someone in PoE that thinks about the meta in terms of "dex" or "int" or "str" builds and keystones.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

IR is in the dex tree, near str/dex. It is aligned with a str/dex identity, but it does not do something to armour; it does something to evasion. It changes evasion into something else, and evasion is aligned with a dex identity. Sure, it changes EV into AR, but that means it changes a dex-aligned mechanic into str/dex-aligned; there is no getting rid of that dex alignment.

AR is the only base defense that lacks a Mara/str tree native "makes pure AR build possible" keystone. It does not matter how great of a use you can put IR to; it is NOT a pure str, pure AR keystone.

So just because IR "does something" to evasion by using it to boost your armor, that in your eyes makes it NOT an armor keystone?

That's like saying the EB keystone that converts energy shield into mana is NOT a keystone for mana. OK.

I struggle to understand how you say AR lacks a Mara/str tree that makes a pure armor build possible. What in your eyes is AR lacking? You have tons of mitigation, life, and damage nodes.

"

"Infused Steel--Your armour rating reduces elemental damage taken at 20% effectiveness; 50% less evasion and energy shield" -> 3x + 5% increased maximum life -> "Living Bulwark--+1 base maximum life per 450 armour rating."

This was in the game already. You had this already by proxy when all the +max resistance nodes where on the Marauder side. Obviously that was imbalanced which was why it got removed.


I would really like to hear your logic on why you think about the game in terms of dex/int/str builds and keystones. In general, I really struggle to understand why AR is crying for buffs. You have the most high-end uniques made specifically for your AR builds (aegis, lightning coil, bringer of rain, daresso defiance, atziri acuity is AR too), you have the best mitigation, you have the best support skills made specifically for armor builds (artic armor, molten shell, immortal call, CWDT), and have a great keystone that you can exploit for double boosting AR.

What is AR lacking?

NOTHING has changed between AR and Evasion since June 2013. AR has just become less useful as more people have found other ways to beat the games content.

I agree with OP.Stacking armor is pointless.

@Ceryneian: I'm not interested in this discussion, because it revolves entirely around my lack of care and effort in making the right choice of words. I'm not changing my tune as we go; I'm trying to clarify my earlier posts. Honestly (and not to sound like an excuse) I was tired when I wrote them then, and I'm still too tired to get into a pissing match about it now.

I will clarify two points and answer your question though, but then I'm bowing out.

"

I am interested in hearing your logic because this is the first time I have come across someone in PoE that thinks about the meta in terms of "dex" or "int" or "str" builds and keystones.

Meta-design not meta-game. My posts were meant to be about identity, and the scope of possibilities while adhering to the idea of identity. The mistake I made was assuming that by saying "pure AR" you would read "and the things that share identity with it," i.e., strength.

You seem to lack an understanding of what "identity" is, and I don't fault you for that. I just don't feel like getting into a discussion about it.

"

...and have a great keystone that you can exploit for double boosting AR.

If you mean double-dipping, IR does not do that. It calculates base EV*(increased EV + increased AR/EV) plus base AR*(increased AR + increased AR/EV).

If you meant via double-flasking and auras, then okay ^-^

"

What is AR lacking?

My initial post was in agreement with Snorkle_uk. I only made a case that each other core defense has an "in-house" keystone, while AR does not. Not that AR needs a pure-str keystone, but that (implied) it would be nice to have something that changes the way someone might approach AR. What that something is? That's up to GGG; I'm only here to point out it's something that AR does not have.

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CanHasPants wrote:

Meta-design not meta-game. My posts were meant to be about identity, and the scope of possibilities while adhering to the idea of identity. The mistake I made was assuming that by saying "pure AR" you would read "and the things that share identity with it," i.e., strength.

Thanks for clarifying. I am still confused on why you think strength is linked to AR, or why you want a "pure-str" keystone. Apart from being on the same side of the tree, strength has nothing to do with armor. Strength and armor are not linked in anyway. Strength only gives life and melee phys damage, it has NOTHING to do with armor. There is no "pure-dex" keystone, there is no "pure-int" keystone.

"

My initial post was in agreement with Snorkle_uk. I only made a case that each other core defense has an "in-house" keystone, while AR does not. Not that AR needs a pure-str keystone, but that (implied) it would be nice to have something that changes the way someone might approach AR. What that something is? That's up to GGG; I'm only here to point out it's something that AR does not have.

I think I finally get what you are trying to imply even though you cannot come out and just say this:

You want a specific node that buffs Armor and cannot be used with Evasion and cannot be used with Energy Shield.

You want to create another keystone more restrictive than Unwavering Stance that can only benefit armor users.

This is where I get confused because nothing has changed between evasion / armor / ES mechanics since June 2013 - so why do you think AR need a buff on the tree? GGG removed max resistance from being on the Mara side and distributed it around the tree, so they clearly thought having spell mitigation concentrated in the AR side was imbalanced. This leaves mitigation against physical attacks - yet AR users have the easiest time using CWDT and Immortal Call setups due to more life on their side and all the endurance charges are on their side. Not to forget all the other support skills I mentioned (arctic armor, molten shell, etc.). What am I missing?

Yup, I'm done ^-^