Tracking RMT

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geradon wrote:

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mrpetrov wrote:

I would be hoping to try and shed some little light on the question of how RMT impacts the PoE economy. In any case, doesn't seem like people care or want to really investigate the issue further, and I've certainly got better things to do with my time, so I'll let it drop.
P.

the general understanding is that rmt is bad for a game (especially if it's hard and not rewarding to play) because people spend their money getting ingame advantages rather than donating it to the company which built the game.

what results do you expect from this statistics?
what's the reason to put that general understanding in question at all?

He's trying to quantify how much impact RMT actually has on the game because people like me claim that it isn't that much, at least for the average player.

I'd be interested in some reliable numbers but am not sure how you would obtain them. Sure you could watch the transactions that happen on d2*** but that's about it or am I missing something? You can't really know how much orbs the common RMT sites have in stock or how many they are selling per day or so, you also don't know how big the entire economy of a league is so you can't really compare RMT to non-RMT.

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geradon wrote:

the general understanding is that rmt is bad for a game (especially if it's hard and not rewarding to play) because people spend their money getting ingame advantages rather than donating it to the company which built the game.

tbh, i dont think rmt is 100% bad for poe. Looking at the drop rates of all the desired stuff, I guess that without rmt the demand for stuff would be higher and supply would be less. As poe is build around economy....everybody know what increased demand/lower supply is resulting in an economy. in my eyes rmt/bots are just "another" participant (not wanted ofc) in the poe economy who actually supply the economy with goods. a legit poe player has more advantages of rmt in poe than without....at least with the current droprates.


And as suggest by OP to track the rates of rmt stuff, I guess thats not a good idea. It just shows to everybody that it needs 30min to work in rl to get something ingame for what you would need over 100h playtime...if you are lucky.

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OleOlof wrote:

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geradon wrote:

the general understanding is that rmt is bad for a game (especially if it's hard and not rewarding to play) because people spend their money getting ingame advantages rather than donating it to the company which built the game.

tbh, i dont think rmt is 100% bad for poe. Looking at the drop rates of all the desired stuff, I guess that without rmt the demand for stuff would be higher and supply would be less. As poe is build around economy....everybody know what increased demand/lower supply is resulting in an economy. in my eyes rmt/bots are just "another" participant (not wanted ofc) in the poe economy who actually supply the economy with goods. a legit poe player has more advantages of rmt in poe than without....at least with the current droprates.


And as suggest by OP to track the rates of rmt stuff, I guess thats not a good idea. It just shows to everybody that it needs 30min to work in rl to get something ingame for what you would need over 100h playtime...if you are lucky.

I look at it a bit differently. With RMT, demand increases, as people who don't dedicate the time are able to participate in the end game economy, while supply remains relatively constant, as a bot can farm for months without dropping a piece of end game gear, judging from what I've read on bot forums. Further, all those orbs and items that RMT sites collect aren't a part of the economy until someone reintroduces them by going through the paywall, which actually lowers supply. So lower supply, higher demand.

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b15h09 wrote:

I look at it a bit differently. With RMT, demand increases, as people who don't dedicate the time are able to participate in the end game economy,

that what you describe is not demand. people who get what they want are not demanding anymore. their demand is saturated. rmt lowers the global demand as it leads to MORE of the desired stuff in the whole economy (as if you would have without rmt).

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b15h09 wrote:

while supply remains relatively constant, as a bot can farm for months without dropping a piece of end game gear, judging from what I've read on bot forums.

Supply is higher. I can also farm for months without dropping any end game gear...but thats rng and doesnt matter here right now.

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b15h09 wrote:

Further, all those orbs and items that RMT sites collect aren't a part of the economy until someone reintroduces them by going through the paywall, which actually lowers supply. So lower supply, higher demand.

Why does it lower the supply? if someone is actually buying an orb from rmt site, he is increasing the orbs available in the poe ecomomy. there is one more orb in economy as without rmt. thats an increase.

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OleOlof wrote:

that what you describe is not demand. people who get what they want are not demanding anymore. their demand is saturated. rmt lowers the global demand as it leads to MORE of the desired stuff in the whole economy (as if you would have without rmt).

Those people wouldn't be demanding anything, as those items would be beyond their means. RMT allows those items to be within their means, thus putting them into direction competition with those who legitimately can afford them, driving up the price.

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OleOlof wrote:

Supply is higher. I can also farm for months without dropping any end game gear...but thats rng and doesnt matter here right now.

I'll agree, supply is higher, depending on who is doing the botting. If it's an RMT company, or an RMT supplier that's botting, those items don't enter the economy, but sit in the RMT coffers until someone pays cash to release them. If it's an individual doing it for their own ends, then yes, it does increase global supply. But, I believe bots play a rather minor role in PoE's economy and RMT in general. The real money is in scamming and item flipping. Some flippers will gather hundreds of exalted orbs, then sell them in bulk to an RMT site. And in that regard, yes, RNG doesn't matter here, as we all know, trade > than playing the game.

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OleOlof wrote:

Why does it lower the supply? if someone is actually buying an orb from rmt site, he is increasing the orbs available in the poe ecomomy. there is one more orb in economy as without rmt. thats an increase.

Nearly every orb in the PoE economy that is injected by RMT was first removed from the economy, often by a flipper looking to liquidate their PoE gains. It divides the economy, and the part that legitimate players are participating in has a reduced overall supply because of it.

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b15h09 wrote:

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OleOlof wrote:

that what you describe is not demand. people who get what they want are not demanding anymore. their demand is saturated. rmt lowers the global demand as it leads to MORE of the desired stuff in the whole economy (as if you would have without rmt).

Those people wouldn't be demanding anything, as those items would be beyond their means. RMT allows those items to be within their means, thus putting them into direction competition with those who legitimately can afford them, driving up the price.

yes, thats a valid point but the legit player profits the same way when he is selling his stuff.

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b15h09 wrote:

I'll agree, supply is higher, depending on who is doing the botting. If it's an RMT company, or an RMT supplier that's botting, those items don't enter the economy, but sit in the RMT coffers until someone pays cash to release them.

Yes, ofc they need to be released first to enter economy. But without rmt you wont have this extra supply...for sure. The released stuff from rmt sites would be simply missing...resulting in lower supply/higher demand.

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b15h09 wrote:

Nearly every orb in the PoE economy that is injected by RMT was first removed from the economy, often by a flipper looking to liquidate their PoE gains. It divides the economy, and the part that legitimate players are participating in has a reduced overall supply because of it.

If every RMT orb is only from other players than you are right. I was thinking of RMT/Bots as "additional" participants and thus "creating" new orbs/items by themselves.

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Xavderion wrote:

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geradon wrote:

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mrpetrov wrote:

I would be hoping to try and shed some little light on the question of how RMT impacts the PoE economy. In any case, doesn't seem like people care or want to really investigate the issue further, and I've certainly got better things to do with my time, so I'll let it drop.
P.

the general understanding is that rmt is bad for a game (especially if it's hard and not rewarding to play) because people spend their money getting ingame advantages rather than donating it to the company which built the game.

what results do you expect from this statistics?
what's the reason to put that general understanding in question at all?

He's trying to quantify how much impact RMT actually has on the game because people like me claim that it isn't that much, at least for the average player.

I'd be interested in some reliable numbers but am not sure how you would obtain them. Sure you could watch the transactions that happen on d2*** but that's about it or am I missing something? You can't really know how much orbs the common RMT sites have in stock or how many they are selling per day or so, you also don't know how big the entire economy of a league is so you can't really compare RMT to non-RMT.

in addition to that rmt sites can change prices dependent on how good their morning cereals tasted.

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Want to accumulate some solid numbers on the effect of RMT in PoE?

Create a non-RMT league alongside the regular league. Compare. Done.

zomg split the player base loot 2 win dev resources noob argh112!1

But jokes aside, I think the only way to substantially reduce the availability or attractiveness of engaging in RMT will also functionally eliminate the PoE economy in that league - so, for example, creating a SFL alongside a trade league won't tell you anything about the impact of RMT on the economy, because the SFL won't have an economy to measure against...

P.

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mrpetrov wrote:

"

Want to accumulate some solid numbers on the effect of RMT in PoE?

Create a non-RMT league alongside the regular league. Compare. Done.

zomg split the player base loot 2 win dev resources noob argh112!1

But jokes aside, I think the only way to substantially reduce the availability or attractiveness of engaging in RMT will also functionally eliminate the PoE economy in that league - so, for example, creating a SFL alongside a trade league won't tell you anything about the impact of RMT on the economy, because the SFL won't have an economy to measure against...

P.

While I know you can never go home, it wasn't a problem in CB, and I attribute that to the price for admission (though the impending wipe surely played a role). Stats on a paid league vs. the free leagues are the closest I think one could get to measurable results. There'd still be some RMT in a paid league, but if GGG could stay on top of it, it could prove to be unprofitable for those who participate.