Scavenger League – An attempt at creating a self-found league with sensible progression

Preface: This thread is dedicated to the discussion of how GGG could implement a self-found league given that they intended to do so. Please refrain from discussing whether or not they should create a SFL or anything else not related to the following suggestions. There are many other threads where it’s possible to voice one’s opinion on the issue of the need for and possibility of a self-found league or lack of so. The scenario here is that a SFL will be created, and the following should be a discourse on how we can alter the game in order for it to function under the no-trading paradigm.

Intro, Discussion, Goal
For the uninitiated, of which I doubt there are many, here is a broad definition of a self-found league: A league wherein trading or any sort of exchange of items is disabled. Many players throughout PoE’s history have asked for such a league to be created due to various reasons.

But if one if to establish such a league, one must first take care of the problems that arises when you remove such an integral part as trading from the game. To put it simply, item progression, monster difficulty, and drop rates are all designed and calibrated around the fact that players will be trading with each other. Removing trading completely messes up the game when it comes to loot. While GGG has stated a number of reasons for why they so far haven’t decided to try out a self-found league, I think that one of their most prominent concerns is that the experience simply wouldn’t be very enjoyable due to the imbalance the removal of trading results in.

Some would say that we should just go for a SFL without any countermeasures to this problem and let it be as it may, but I wager that GGG would agree with me on the notion that if we are to do it, we must do it right. If we take their rather perfectionistic approach to cut-throat league into consideration, it would certainly seem so at least.

Another thing we must keep in mind when discussing the creation of a new league is that it must be of equal or higher difficulty in comparison with the standard league, a requirement stated by GGG themselves, and one I think most would agree should be followed even when it comes to a SFL.

Thus the goal of these following suggestions is to counterbalance the loss of trading through various changes, aiming to be as simple in implementation as possible while ensuring a sensible progression system for the self-found player but retaining a difficulty level higher than the one found in standard league.


All discussion and feedback is very welcome and quite certainly needed. This is in no way the final version and I reckon that there are a lot of problems with it that needs to be ironed out. Everything is subject to change, and I’m ready to kill my darlings if more refined and effective solutions are presented. If something similar to this has been posted in the past and I didn't find it despite my efforts, I apologise. If that is the case, I would request that a mod move this post to that thread instead.

Without further ado, I present to you: Scavenger League (Working title, suggestions would be appreciated)

Changes
Basic Rules
A1.) Basic rules: No trading between players, no way to exchange items between players in any shape or form (By making all items owned by a player account-bound or something along those lines), permanent allocation always on. (This is to actually make the league a self-found league.)

A2.) Only show players their own loot and dropped items on the screen in order to lessen clutter, with the exception of unique item drops.
The two following points are major overhauls to how item drops and orbs function, and make up the core of this league’s changes:

Uniques
B1.) Introduce a new loot table to each boss consisting of unique items. The general idea is that the first time a character kills a boss, a unique item from the unique item loot table is dropped. Subsequent kills have a low chance (5% for example) of dropping a unique item from the same table. A character can only receive a given unique item once. Unique item tables should consist of a relatively low number of uniques (5-10 I’m thinking) and will be of or around the same level as the boss that drops them.

B2.) This system will replace the unique drops within the current systems. This means that all other items besides unique items will drop as they normally do. A mob will drop what it would usually drop with the exception of unique items, but bosses have the added chance (100% for the first kill, 5% for all subsequent for example) of dropping a unique item in addition to everything else. Even with this change chance orbs would still be able to generate unique items.

B(elaboration): This change creates a reasonably challenging but less random way of obtaining uniques. Possibly the most central problem to a SFL is the lack of easy access to all the wonderful build-enabling items that can be found within the game, but this change will ensure that players can work towards the specific uniques they want in a meaningful way. By letting a given unique only drop once for a certain character, you allow players to either get what they want or at the very least be one step closer to getting it each time they kill a boss and a unique is dropped, thereby removing the otherwise frustratingly random nature of finding a specific unique when trade is disabled. This change has some cool side effects. First of all it makes the first time you clear a boss a very cool moment. This is especially important in the higher difficulties and when running challenging maps. An issue that I reckon is still widespread is that players have little motivation to actually kill map bosses because they feel the reward is not worth the risk and time investment. With this system, the motivation to actually defeat the bosses will emerge, and I could imagine that groups running certain maps to farm a specific boss due to the players each wanting an item from the drop table will be very common. The most awesome of the uniques are still restricted through the difficulty to obtain them, since the highest level ones will be dropped from the highest level bosses, most of which are notoriously hard. Since a given unique can only drop once for a character, there are two ways to obtain more than one copy of the same unique: Making another character to get it, or using Chance orbs to generate one.

B(example): Merveil at normal difficulty is level 15. She has the following unique item loot table: The Magnate, Hyrri’s Bite, Solaris Lorica, Ondar’s Flight, Facebreaker, and Malachai’s Simula. The marauder “Maradak” reaches Merveil and slays her for the first time. She drops Ondar’s Flight, and a bunch of other non-unique stuff. Deciding that he really just wants to punch faces, Maradak decides to farm Merveil for a while. After 14 kills, Hyrri’s Bite drops. This disappoints Maradak, but realizing that the loot table options now are reduced to 4, he continues the massacre with renewed hope. After 22 kills, Merveil finally gives in and a Facebreaker magically emerges from her guts, and so the facepunching begins.

Orbs
C1.) A revamp of the orb system is required to incentivize the actual use of it instead of just hoarding orbs until one reaches the absolute end-game. For a self-found league, crafting will be central, and one shouldn’t feel punished each time an orb is used. Now, this is a bit more heavy handed than what I’d like, so feel free to come up with better solutions, but here goes: Create 4 tiers for each orb, one for each difficulty level (normal, cruel, merciless) and one for maps. The idea is that tier 1 (normal) can only be used on items dropped in normal, tier 2 (cruel) can be used on items obtained in normal and cruel, and so on and so forth. The orbs could be visually distinguishable through a simple number indicating the tier.


C2.) Allow players to trade (at the vendor, of course) lower tier orbs for higher tier orbs with a certain disadvantage, and allow higher tier orbs to be traded in for many lower tier orbs. For example, 5 tier 1 chaos orbs can be traded in for 1 tier 2 chaos orb, and vice versa. It should be more appealing trading higher tiers for lower tiers.

C(elaboration):These changes should promote the use of orbs in all tiers of play by making it more reasonable to do so. The reason, as I see it, for not doing something similar in the normal leagues is that it would ruin the way that even low level characters can obtain trade currency that is relevant to all players. In Scavenger league, we do not need to be concerned about the impact of trading and therefore we can make full use of the rather ingenious crafting system without feeling penalized, with the described changes.

Drop rates
D1.) An overall huge increase to the drop rate of orbs and gems. What percentage exactly is up to debate, but it has to be in the hundreds I figure, in order to make up for not being able to trade for specific orbs and gems.

D2.) Increase the amount of gems that you receive from quests and increase the options to choose from. Instead of choosing 1 gem out of a catalogue of 8, you choose 3 gems out of a catalogue of 20.

D(elaboration): To make a SFL work normal drop rates are not adequate. I know many will feel uncomfortable about increasing these numbers, but one must remember that without trading your options would be severely limited without more orbs to craft with and more gems to use for your build. What we need here is an increase that doesn’t trivialize the game but makes for a slightly if not significantly harder progression path compared to standard league. What number that will do the trick, combined with the other listed suggestions, is hard to determine without testing. It could be 150%, it could be 400%, we will find out together. I claim that despite all these changes, Scavenger league will still prove to be rather difficult league to play in.

English is my second language, I apologise for any mistakes.
Last edited by Khargan on Jul 29, 2014, 4:32:06 PM
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Here are my suggestions for 'self-found' which I don't think should be separate from a trade league and item progression:

Self found:
Spoiler
- Self found should not be a separate league but a part of any league

- Trading should be allowed

- Items should have a field that shows the name of whoever found the item

- If the item is equipped by the same person all the stats on the item should get a bonus, say 10% (bonus should be visible on the item stat sheet)

- If the item is traded the name will go blank and the stat bonuses will disappear

- For every level gained using only self found items all item stats get a 0.25% bonus to stats (max bonus 25% at level 100), if at any time a non self found item is equipped the bonus disappears forever

- Whenever a self found orb is used on a self found item there is a higher percent chance of getting a better result (only for orbs where this makes sense like fusing or orbs that reroll values)


Item progression:
Spoiler
- no item prefixes/suffixes when items drop, just the base item stats
- prefixes/suffixes come from gem-like item drops (e.g. gem with 1-2 physical damage or 2% faster attack speed)
- white items have 1 slot for gems, blues have 2 slots, yellows have 3 - 7 slots
- these gems are BoA
- gems would have tiers (similar to how affixes work now) based on monster levels
- gems can be slotted into item slots and will gain experience like skill gems do, granting bigger bonuses as they level up
- higher tier gems will require more experience to level up but will have larger bonuses and more levels, e.g. tier 1 gem will be able to level up to max of level 5, while top tier will be able to get to level 20
- within each tier, gems will have random starting stats - e.g flat physical damage can roll starting (1 to 2) min - (2 - 3) max, so the worst roll can be 1-2 dmg, best 2-3 dmg

This type of system will ensure that people who put in more time will get better rewards and wouldn't be left at the mercy of random numbers.
Your suggestions are detailed and interesting, personally I feel drop rates shouldn't be changed, cause SFL is supposed to be extra challenging, but it is a personal opinion.

I don't agree with the suggestion that uniques can only drop once for a character. Cause if you use a unique for a build as BIS and are crafting for 5L or 6L, you need two of the same unique many times so you don't break the character if you run out of orbs. For instance if you have a groundslammer and you found a Marohi and 5 Linked it, but you want 6 links, its better if you have an extra Marohi to put the orbs on to get the 6 Link.

Suggestion to prevent trading:

To prevent trading of all kinds, including old fashioned trading of dropping items and currency on the ground, all items and currency picked up by a player in a SFL shuld be bound to that players account. That way two players could not join a party and go outside of town and 1 player drop currency on the ground and another player drop an item to trade. If items are bound to accounts, one player would never be able to pick up an item that was dropped by another player from their item stash. Also since items are bound by account, a player could put item in their stash in town and new characters they made in the SFL could still use them.

"Come along fool, a direct hit to the senses will leave you disconnected."
Last edited by KimchiGirlx3 on Jul 29, 2014, 11:42:27 AM
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KimchiGirlx3 wrote:
I don't agree with the suggestion that uniques can only drop once for a character. Cause if you use a unique for a build as BIS and are crafting for 5L or 6L, you need two of the same unique many times so you don't break the character if you run out of orbs. For instance if you have a groundslammer and you found a Marohi and 5 Linked it, but you want 6 links, its better if you have an extra Marohi to put the orbs on to get the 6 Link.


A key component of my suggested changes to how uniques drop is that it allows for a sort of quasi-progress where you're always one step closer to what you want to get, even though you don't know exactly how many steps it'll take in the end. Allowing the same unique to drop twice removes this quality.

There is always the option of creating another character to find the same unique again, but I can see how some might find that overly cumbersome. I think it's kind of neat in a way, actually.

How about allowing Chance orbs to keep the ability to create uniques? Would this be a sufficient compromise?

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To prevent trading of all kinds, including old fashioned trading of dropping items and currency on the ground, all items and currency picked up by a player in a SFL shuld be bound to that players account. That way two players could not join a party and go outside of town and 1 player drop currency on the ground and another player drop an item to trade. If items are bound to accounts, one player would never be able to pick up an item that was dropped by another player from their item stash. Also since items are bound by account, a player could put item in their stash in town and new characters they made in the SFL could still use them.


This is definitely necessary, and I don't know why I forgot to state so explicitly in the original thread. To expand upon your idea and what I suggested with A2, how about making it so that all items bound to a player, that being everything that drops for him and everything he's picked up, are invisible to other players, with the exception of unique items. Showing what unique items drops for other players would add nice opportunities for banter like "Oh man, an Alpha's Howl! How fucking awesome! You got to make a build for that!".

I have updated A1 with this discussion in mind.
Last edited by Khargan on Jul 29, 2014, 1:01:31 PM
Due to a discussion with a certain Pomfrod on another site, I've decided to change D1 to not include maps, so that the normal map progression and difficulties associated with it are unchanged, retaining as much balance from, and resemblence to, the standard league as possible, and making the implementation of the Scavenger league a bit easier.
Should the probabilities for getting top tier uniques drop be the same as in trade-based leagues? What happens to the loot when the league ends? What about the effect on the economy of standard league?
All my builds /view-thread/1430399

T14 'real' clearspeed challenge /1642265
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MatrixFactor wrote:
Should the probabilities for getting top tier uniques drop be the same as in trade-based leagues? What happens to the loot when the league ends? What about the effect on the economy of standard league?


Maybe I should word it more clearly in the OP, but the idea is that the new system for unique drops replaces all normal unique drops, basically meaning that uniques are dropped from bosses in addition to normal loot, but otherwise the chance of getting them is removed from all other monsters loot tables. Chance orbs can still be used to create a desired unique item, with the same probability as normal.

Honestly I was thinking that Scavenger League, due to being self-found and therefore immune to inflation, and given how many might want to progress at their own pace and like that they can play on the same character for years, should be permanent. So it wouldn't end, and there should be no way to transfer items between Scavenger league and any other league.

We could discuss the possibility of having a Scavenger League and a Hardcore Scavenger League, interacting in the same way as Standard and Hardcore league do. I think dying on a self-found hardcore character at high level with years of investment into crafting and finding awesome gear could quite possibly be the most painful experience Path of Exile would be able to offer. That's a good thing, right? More pain and suffering for us masochists!

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