:) Legacy Items :) (GGG RESPONSE REQUESTED) :)

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iamstryker wrote:

The only thing legacy there is the name of the sword lol. But i'm guessing that was the joke.

It sums up my feelings about the topic thou.

Legacy items are a bonus for long term players and collectors.
Not necessary to be "competitive"(LOL) in this game.

We can agree to disagree as this basically runs down to it always. At least the devs share the same sentiment when it comes to taking items away from their players due to their ever-changing game and their initial balance faults.

And yes, I ignore 3rd party influence in this discussion. As I would in every discussion when it comes to customer satisfaction. You don't remove trading completely out of the game just to circumvent RMT. You don't take earned items away from players only because you fear the market implications.

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Nightmare90 wrote:

You don't take earned items away from players only because you fear the market implications.

Nerfing an item does not equal taking it away. Balance either matters or it doesn't. If it does then all of the items need to be nerfed. If it doesn't then none of them do. What we have now is a weird system where the devs balanced all of the new items so that people who didn't have them probably never will and the people who already have them get instantly rich, why? Because those items were over powered? Doing this didn't solve anything.

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Balance either matters or it doesn't

Good that we settled this, because it doesnt. Especially not in legacy leagues that officially are seen as the dumpsters of the game. Theres a reason everything ends up in Standard after all.

Hardcore and Standard are supposed to offer stability to the players. When they managed to get their hands on an item, they arent supposed to be punished for doing so. Thats what 4 months leagues exist for: to constantly scramble the meta. Personally, I wouldnt even invest any time into balancing a PVE grinder with literally no competitive aspect for multiple reasons. But since GGG seems to care I am at least happy that they do it right.

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iamstryker wrote:

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Nightmare90 wrote:

You don't take earned items away from players only because you fear the market implications.

Nerfing an item does not equal taking it away. Balance either matters or it doesn't. If it does then all of the items need to be nerfed. If it doesn't then none of them do. What we have now is a weird system where the devs balanced all of the new items so that people who didn't have them probably never will and the people who already have them get instantly rich, why? Because those items were over powered? Doing this didn't solve anything.

No one in their right mind would pay 500ex for an item to beat the hardest content ever instead of 50ex, exaggerated of course. People overpaying for 10 second kill-speed deserve the loss on their sides. So yeah, balance doesn't matter here, right.

What matters is customer satisfaction and the other possibility of having an item outright nerfed for which you payed legit 10ex. I take the lesser evil of actually having people not rage about their nerfed items and instead some raging about the 10 second disadvantage.


Or to put it simple: I'd rage mad if Charan was able to remove that name from my beloved sword. I love the name and I overpayed that sword back then. Because it was worth it for me. With the new name I wouldn't know. :P

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nynyny wrote:

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Balance either matters or it doesn't

Good that we settled this, because it doesnt.

Great then you agree that nerfing in standard wasn't necessary.

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nynyny wrote:

Personally, I wouldnt even invest any time into balancing a PVE grinder with literally no competitive aspect for multiple reasons.

You mean like rewards for the first people to kill a new boss? Or rewards for finishing well in short events?

As the racers say, "no competition."

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Creon wrote:

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nynyny wrote:

Personally, I wouldnt even invest any time into balancing a PVE grinder with literally no competitive aspect for multiple reasons.

You mean like rewards for the first people to kill a new boss? Or rewards for finishing well in short events?

As the racers say, "no competition."

It was the first of its kind. Its questionable that something like this will ever be implemented again. By the time you want to balanced something people will already have killed the mob.

Besides, the first Invasion kill (the only one that counts) was partially performed by a Life bsed Cycloner, should that be nerfed as well now? The only thing about this game that would require balancing due to its competitive aspect are races. But last I checked you almost never end up running endgame builds in said races. And those builds are the only thing people constantly want to rebalance. At the beginning of the league people will always figure out something that is broken. So by the time it gets fixed, these sort of "world firsts" already are down, meaning balancing is irrelevant at that point because the damage was already done.

Thats why a competitive aspect in endgame grinding does not exist. Besides, I explained countless times why one broken build even favors others. If everybody plays one build people keep buying X items, which makes the cost for said item increase. Meanwhile people kill shit quickly and have Y item drop over and over, but no one wants to use Y. So if you decide to finally focus on playing what you like (assuming its not the popular build) then you end up having to spend almost no money to equip yourself because the gear you want is just lying around on the forums, with no one buying it, decreasing your cost significantly.

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nynyny wrote:

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Creon wrote:

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nynyny wrote:

Personally, I wouldnt even invest any time into balancing a PVE grinder with literally no competitive aspect for multiple reasons.

You mean like rewards for the first people to kill a new boss? Or rewards for finishing well in short events?

As the racers say, "no competition."

It was the first of its kind. Its questionable that something like this will ever be implemented again. By the time you want to balanced something people will already have killed the mob.

GGG expressed interest in running competitions like these again and went out of there way to note they would look for ways to avoid the problems of selling top spots in the future.

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nynyny wrote:

Besides, the first Invasion kill (the only one that counts) was partially performed by a Life bsed Cycloner, should that be nerfed as well now?

Technically, the only skill on that Cycloner which mattered was Immortal Call. A discussion as to the balance of said skill is outside the scope of this thread. The choice of Cyclone was largely irrelevant.

The choice to use Soul Taker + Bringer of Rain + Aegis Aurora was very relevant, but guess what? GGG had already nerfed them for being too powerful. I want GGG to feel comfortable nerfing other items when they find it necessary without concern of an outcry of "legacy items!" Allowing legacy versions to continue dropping in Standard costs GGG zero man-hours of work and prevents player anger in a league which will forever have those imbalanced items anyway. Why oppose it?

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nynyny wrote:

Besides, I explained countless times why one broken build even favors others. If everybody plays one build people keep buying X items, which makes the cost for said item increase. Meanwhile people kill shit quickly and have Y item drop over and over, but no one wants to use Y. So if you decide to finally focus on playing what you like (assuming its not the popular build) then you end up having to spend almost no money to equip yourself because the gear you want is just lying around on the forums, with no one buying it, decreasing your cost significantly.

I agree with this logic. If a single item is widely accepted as the most overpowered item for an equipment slot, it will become as expensive as availability dictates and drive down the price of every other item for that slot accordingly.

My memory may be fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure that early on GGG expressed a desire to have rares generally be the best in slot items with unique items having niche purposes. They even expressed regret as to the balance of Lioneye's Glare, which is a laughable concern today compared to other, newer items. This was a design goal I found highly desirable and it helped attract me to the game. It was something I loved about Diablo 2 classic, as opposed to the best in slot runewords of the expansion. Items like Atziri's Acuity and Shavronne's Wrappings fail spectacularly in this regard, although Shavronne's fails for indirect reasons (Blood Rage, Pain Attunement, Crown of Eyes synergy, the snapshotting which will be once was). I would note that the existence of Exalted Orbs + Eternal Orbs + Mirrors also fail in this regard, as they make perfect items significantly more obtainable, even if prohibitively expensive. That said, the Exalted Orb + Eternal Orb + Mirror combination has minimal impact on four month leagues as the leagues are not long enough to acquire the wealth necessary to see more than one or two near-perfect items crafted.

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nynyny wrote:

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You don't like the concept.

Well thank you for making my decisions for me.

You're welcome.

Just being honest, though.

Legacy Items are on the same page as Desync.

Most people hate it, some people might miss it, but everyone would be better off without it.

If the choice I made for the non-specific "you" is inaccurate for you, then you have my permission to make your own decision. : ]

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Do_odle wrote:

Legacy Items are on the same page as Desync.

Things stupid people keep complaining about?

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Do_odle wrote:

Most people hate it,

No, you have this definition wrong. Some people hate it, but "most" is a qualifier that we literally have no statistics to back up

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Do_odle wrote:

some people might miss it,

If it was removed? Yes, they might.

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Do_odle wrote:

but everyone would be better off without it.

Not true, thats entirely what is being debated in these threads. This is not a fact in any way