Trade Hate: Which one takes more skill?
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HOLD THE FUCK UP GUYS!
I'm surprised that in 35 pages, someone hasn't mentioned targeted farming yet: AKA regular/uber Atziri. Even though this thread has been derailed a long fucking time ago by the SFL crowd, I want to get back to the original intent of this thread: which is to discuss whether trading or farming takes more skill in the current state of the game. I might've been too harsh in insinuating that trading always takes more skill than getting a lucky drop (which I still believe to an extent), but I think the addition of regular/uber Atziri really turned the game on its head, and I commend GGG for that. Atziri sort of resembles "raids" in MMOs. It pushed people to build specific characters to farm a particular boss for a semi-deteriministic loot drop. For example, if you wanted a pair of Atziri's Step, you needed to be able to beat the shit out of Atziri — not Docks, not Piety, not Dominus, not Shock & Horror. Only Atziri herself can drop it. And I think we can all agree that personally killing Atziri for an Atziri's Step takes a fair bit more game knowledge/skill than trading for one. Before SotV, players were kind of just playing the lottery. We were relegated to farming zones indiscriminately, that produced no targeted loot outcome, always hoping for that 1-in-a-million lucky drop. Because of this reason, I hope GGG introduces more bosses like Atziri. ✮ in-game @FTMFW
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" As I stated early on in the thread (within the first 10 pages, iirc), nobody is making the argument of skill. That's irrelevant. What should be discussed is which should be more rewarding? |
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Hijacked! Could you have put it any stupider? Original purpose? The original purpose was to shit on SFO players. Hence the inflammatory title.
And what does it matter? Traders will trade. Non traders will not. Which one is harder? Try it yourselves and find out. I can take a good guess at traders bailing on SF. |
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" I have to say that I agree that this thread was just an anti-SFL thread in disguise. That's why it wasn't locked for all the SFL talk that "derailed" it. Putting "Trade Hate" in the title already says that you're talking to SFL players since they are the ones asking for trade to go away. Everyone else that dislikes trading right now only dislikes trading right now. They don't mind trading in general. Even so, we could potentially have a meaningful discussion about how rewarding farming vs trading is (or should be). That sounds more productive, in my opinion. |
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Drops from farming is pretty boring. I wouldn't have said that when I was new but after a long time of playing I had to be honest with myself. Trading is the only that I can feel rewarded for my time.
Standard Forever
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See, this is why I think people remember D2 so fondly. You could farm your own stuff pretty easily with enough MF and a good build, and only a small portion of the player base were actively trading in such a way that they could afford the major rune words. Even then, they weren't necessary to do anything in the game (except maybe certain uber builds). I never felt that drops held me back from progression, because I knew if I just farmed a bit more that I not only could--but would--find what I needed to take the next step. The only time I ever felt stonewalled in progression was when I had a bad build.
That's what I feel separates this game from other ARPGs. The higher you get in level/content, the less rewarding farming feels. In most others (D2, Torchlight 1 & 2, Borderlands if you can count that, etc) the feeling is opposite. In those, you only feel like farming is pointless at low level. I think part of the reason for this is that any currency can drop anywhere (or so they say), and that you only really see more currency as opposed to better currency as you farm higher level stuff. Sometimes having more drops can lead to a chance at better drops, but the end result so far is that people feel like farming is a waste of time. That's not healthy for an ARPG, and this is the first place I would look to fix the new player retention issue that GGG is concerned about. They don't have to change much, in my opinion, to fix this issue. Just small tweaks and improvements for higher level content, and that would probably do the trick. For example, they don't necessarily have to make T1 affixes drop more often. Just make low tier affixes drop less often, or not at all past a certain threshold. This makes it so that higher level stuff is on average a little better, but that a mid level item could still potentially roll GG. It would be a subtle difference, but it would make a world of difference. |
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*checks back on thread after it's grown another 10 pages*
"  What, am I not even here? I'm like the original against SFL guy. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Jul 29, 2014, 2:56:18 AM
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Sorry, tbh your post was to long for me to read through to make that list.
Id add you to it but its kinda pointless now.. IGN
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Can't be bothered reading through 35 pages of stuff. Sure, trading may require market knowledge, risk reward evaluation etc. and that is something that one will have to pick up. However, I'd also argue that playing SF requires knowledge of the game, knowing how to progress efficiently with limited resources. For example, having played my scion solo-SF in ambush till 88, I'd say playing SF requires one to:
1) Come up with builds that's relatively gear independent. Often a times this means no unique items assumed. This is usually achieved by going the spell caster route and investing in auras. It's really important for one to know the nature of each spell and how best to take advantage of its traits. (E.g. Incinerate, due to its ramp up nature, will require a character to invest significantly in defences). 2) Come up with builds that are sufficiently robust. SF mapping is hard, especially when one doesn't have access to the 1 stack of alts -> 1 chaos conversion via trading. This means that often a times I'm required to run high % maps even though they may contain dangerous affixes. This requires builds that are powerful enough to tackle these maps and not die since even in softcore, dying in high levels is expensive, more so if you're playing self-found. 3) Understand what available resources one has and how to utilize them. Sometimes you get bad streaks and run out of chaos, what do you do? You get a good map (pack size, magic monsters) with low quantity, to vaal or not to vaal? Should I fragment a certain map? Should I run a map unidentified? 4) Understand how to obtain resources Efficient ways to farm for chaos orbs? Chisels? How much resources should one accumulate before trying to push for the next level? Without access to currency trading, things like chaos, alchs, chisels, maps etc. become much more valuable. 5) Most importantly, KNOW THE GAME! I see a lot of complaints about the lack of sophistication in PoE. People complaining about the lack of mechanical fights etc. WELL IF YOU'RE FACEROLLING EVERYTHING OF COURSE THERE'S NO CHALLENGE! Things like dodging the laser from soul watchers; killing grapplers first so they don't build up charges; kiting and focusing down arcmages; avoiding traps thrown by undying alchemists and incinerators; dodging charges etc. become much more important when your trying to push forwards with less than ideal gear. In this aspect, playing SF is actually kind of like racing (except that the hardcore element is optional as opposed to races) in which you're trying to progress as far as you can with crappy gear. OP presented arguments supporting the statement that trading is superior in terms of skill, but he doesn't really consider the other side much. To those who have never played SF past lvl 75, I'd say playing SF is A LOT MORE than just killing monsters and praying for a lucky drop. That said, a SFL won't help the situation. From my observations, SFL proponents are split into two factions (one who claims to desire a SFL but really wants a drop rate buff instead; and another that wants a level playing field for everyone) I believe the problem of efficiency of trade versus SF lies much deeper than just drop rates. As the latter group, I'd say it won't make a difference since the ladder would then just be led by lucky players who managed to SF a shavs, or a GG dagger, or a windripper etc. I do sympathize with their viewpoint though. I definitely can't say that I'm the best solo-SF player, or even a good one at that, but having gotten to 88 on ambush, it'd be nice to know where I stand among other solo-SF players. The benefit of that definitely isn't enough to warrant a league on it's own, but it's nice. P.S. Even though I have yet to kill Atziri, I'd say that a self-found player who managed to kill Atziri is MUCH more commendable than a trading player any day. Then again, self-found Atziri means nothing when you can technically SF godly gear over time... No-unique Atziri however... Last edited by Cyan_ogeN on Jul 29, 2014, 6:38:59 AM
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" Because this is no game for old men. This message was delivered by GGG defence force. Last edited by mazul on Jul 29, 2014, 6:19:45 AM
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