Israel does it's best to become the most hated nation in the world

"

Poutsos wrote:

Ok so the actually Sadam was alone to blame

The problems in Iraq are not as simple as pointing a finger at one or two groups. If someone really wants to understand the problems they need to go back through history and look at what has happened.

The borders of Iraq and how they were designed for instance, and the problems that foisted upon the people trying to live as one nation.

"

Poutsos wrote:

Also if you fuck my girlfriend and i kill you,you are the one to blame,not me for pulling the trigger.Sorry but i cannot buy in to that logic.

As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Read the Peel Commission report. The problems aren't new. The two state solution was proposed and enacted because the one state solution was even worse for the Palestinian people.

People who won't read the history will never understand the issues. They may think they know what is going on, but they will repeat the same mistakes as their predecessors.

If someone only looks at it through the perspective of how the viewer or the subject "feels" than they might as well try hire a blind pilot who flies by smell.

There are injustices and crimes and terror attacks and retaliations. It didn't start in 2006, nor in 1967, nor in 1948, but long before that.

There is a strong faction throughout the Arab world that does not want Israel to continue to exist. That faction uses the Palestinians as sacrificial pawns. They funnel their weapons, money and tactics into the area to attack Israel.

Israel, on the other hand, shows no reluctance to continue to build and confiscate land and resources that do not belong to it. They are treating the land as if it were the spoils of a victor. While Israel has been largely victorious in the battles, this does not give them any international legal standing to keep the territory forever.

The continued attacks on Israel cause the world to look away from the Palestinian's claims. Because of this, many see Palestine as a murderer who is complaining that the towels in his prison cell aren't fluffy enough.

The Palestinians need to break free of terrorist control. They may need to dissolve their government, accede to UN control, inspection, and protection while they figure out how to build a government that works through diplomacy.

If they can do something akin to that and stop their attacks on Israel completely, they will be taken seriously, and slowly, but surely their complaints about water, land, settlements etc will get addressed.

> Meanwhile Roger Waters of Pink Floyd asks for boycotting Israel.Annie Lennox and Billy Joel canceled their shows there.The scientist Stephen Hawkins cancelced his conference in Israel as a protest against Israel's actions.

Maybe we should send them to Ukraine to solve the crisis there? After that, they can make some music that will soothe Boko Haram into civility. Just as you wouldn't hire Roger Waters or Stephen Hawking to be your surgeon, you should not let them be your diplomats.

This is a job for professionals, who know the give and take of the process, as well as the snail's pace that it must proceed at, so that it can be accepted.

Trying to rush some new fangled idea through would be like deriving a completely new internet structure overnight and implementing it because it's an emergency, dangit!

"

Poutsos wrote:

.Also in addition to the image Vakirauta posted,i d like to add that i even with no studying on the issue at all,it's hard to be sympathetic to israel when Tel Aviv looks ... and Gaza looks ...

Even with no studying at all, someone might think that 3 x 3 x 3 is less than 6 + 6 + 6, but that wouldn't be true.

One of your images shows a beach, which are traditionally more prosperous areas.

One shows an area that has been destroyed by war. These areas never look good.

Someone could just as easily say, it'd hard to feel sorry for Palestine when
Nablus, Palestine looks like this:




and Israel looks like this:







Let's try the before war and after (no the photographs aren't the exact same location) of the Aleppo Souk:






I'm not sure why the photographer chose that color overlay. If you prefer some straight images of the same souk:







What those images mean is that war is to be avoided, not sought.


The horrors in Syria are not about Zionism or caused by Israel. Where is Roger Water's song about the horrors in Syria? Why is Syria not the most hated nation in the world?


Indeed, if you look at what Roger Waters said:

"Seventy years ago, my father – 2nd Lt. Eric Fletcher Waters – died in Italy fighting the Nazis. He was a committed pacifist, and a conscientious objector at the start of the war, but as Hitler’s crimes spread across Europe, he swapped the ambulance he had driven through the London blitz for a tin hat and a commission in the Royal Fusiliers and he joined the fight against fascism..."

Then compare it with his actions. Once again, as throughout history, a concerted effort is being made to drive the Jewish people away, by killing them if necessary. And Roger Waters wants to support one of the groups that is doing it.

I believe his dad would sit Roger down and explain to him that Hamas and PLO and Hezbollah, are just like the old fascist regimes but in different clothing. They want the same rigid control over the people's every thought and they are willing to use the most brutal means to accomplish it.

As for Annie Lenox - where do you think she would stand with the Arab world if ISIS ever carried through with the supposed fatwa ordering female genital mutilation for Iraq?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-25/militants-order-female-genital-mutilation-in-iraq/5622826

(sources are muddled whether this was an old fatwa, a fake or one that was retracted)

I don't think Roger Waters dad would be fighting alongside ISIS.

What does that have to do with what's going on in Palestine right now?

Although the people of Palestine have legitimate complaints, those commanding the rocket attacks, the suicide bombings etc, share similar goals and outlook with ISIS.

None of that means that Israel hasn't taken what isn't theirs. If these various terrorists were all homed in the same nation and were its government, the world would have eliminated them long ago.

If Palestine wants to stay, Hamas needs to go.

People can post all the numbers and celebrity endorsements they want. Their approach won't solve anything, and it will only make things worse and more violent down the road.

People like Roger Waters are only killing the Palestinians. Ignorance isn't a crime, but demanding action from a view point of ignorance should be.

"

aliggato wrote:

If you call Hamas terrorist, then why don't you call Israel terrorist too, for killing civilians ? Or you will tell me, "oh it's Hamas fault, they are hiding behind civilians", always the same bullshit. Israel doesn't try to solve the problem by peace, but by violence, that's all.

Does Israel send disguised soldiers in with bombs strapped to their chest to blow up a busload of civilians?

Does Israel randomly fire rockets into civilian areas hoping for deaths?

Does Israel force citizens to stand on their roofs and die when the rockets hit?

Does Israel threaten to attack other nations if that other nation calls for new elections?

"TEL AVIV – Members of Hamas are debating whether to carry out attacks against the United States and may hit American targets if the U.S. continues to support Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas’ call for new elections, Hamas leaders told WND in a series of interviews."

http://www.wnd.com/2006/12/39400/

Let's try an experiment. 100 supporters of Israel get dropped off without any ID at an IDF station wearing Hamas T-Shirts and are not allowed to say anything. 100 supporters of Hamas are dropped off in front of a Hamas station wearing IDF T-shirts and are not allowed to say anything.

How many of each will be set free after lengthy questioning and how many will be tortured and die?

If you had to put yourself in either group, which one would you choose?

Hamas was democratically elected,and hamas offered for truce when it was elected but was ignored.Sure hamas has to go,but so did PLO before,and so will the next goverment,unless it serves the best interests of Israel and USA.USA have done this through the last 2 centuries continiously,always at the excuse of terrorism,dictatorships,development of nuclear weapons and human rights violations.They did it in vietnam,they did it all over the middle east,they did in Chile and generally latin america.The tried viciously to do it in Cuba but luckily they partially failed,same with Venezuela.All they want is an establishment that serves their best interest.
Also do not assume i do not know the history of the conflict,and the fact that it can be traced as early as the late 19th century.However we examine the events happened from the late 40's till now.Do not assumer that i have not read history.I am a die hard Eric Hobsbawm fan,among others,but my english,as i have stated before are limited to share everything fluently.Also most of my information comes from actual books and not internet links,even though i do beleive that the links i have provided from people of substance,are more worthy than CNN articles or Oficial Israely army youtube videos.
We are trying to analyse a particular conflict here,do not try to force every issue in the islamic world in to this discussion.You keep posting the CNN point of view above,when in reality Palestines historically had 100 times more casualties,with 1000% more of them being civilians,compared to Israelis,all paired with their constant losses of territory,resources etc,AND they get the blame in the whole body of western media.So i still do not buy into the counter terrorism thing.I do recognise though that this post was much more conciliatory,at least recognising the Israel has abused territories and resources,but you still distinguish hamas actions as pure terrorism,while it's clear the the source of the terrorism can be traced(at least post 60's) on this particular situation,rather than fanatic Islamism that asks for genocides.Once again,after hhamas was elected,offered for truce and was ignored.
Lastly,no i cannot agree that Roger Waters kills more Palestinians.He is an artist and he makes a statement.Do not underestimate the power of arts.See the counter culture movement of the 60's.Sure i am not gonna go full hippie here to start spreding that music and art brought peace,but it did play it's part.

Edit:If Palestine ask peacefully in the UN,about the recover of territories,and funds to rebuild the state,we can assumer how it will go,knowing USA's stance on the matter.And nobody can disagree with the US.If you remember,the Iraq War was declared illegal from the UN,but US went on and did anyway.
Of course,clearly violence does not help them at all as well.They are still losing teorritories they die,and they give Israel and US the excuse they need to do so.That's why it is a dead end for them.The only possible thing still remains for them to surrender in whatever terms Israel/US gives,peacefully or violently.I do not beleive unfortunately that terrorism on their part will ever stop,because what happened to their land and people,was down right unfair,and it seems like this is all the have as a REACTION.
Cantrip above wrote that it is natural for a state to grow in power and infunece over the years.This is an occupied territory,and the power was increased thhrough FORCE,noone can blame that.The war was profitable for Israel.

"

DalaiLama wrote:

Does Israel send disguised soldiers in with bombs strapped to their chest to blow up a busload of civilians?
Does Israel.....
If you had to put yourself in either group, which one would you choose?

Stop with your stupid questions, you already know that Israel has the power and wants to rule without resistance, and any resistance will be called "terrorist".
And I don't have to chose a group, but the strongest is abusing its position, it's like David against Goliath, but this time Goliath is Israel.

"

aliggato wrote:

"

DalaiLama wrote:

Does Israel send disguised soldiers in with bombs strapped to their chest to blow up a busload of civilians?
Does Israel.....
If you had to put yourself in either group, which one would you choose?

Stop with your stupid questions, you already know that Israel has the power and wants to rule without resistance, and any resistance will be called "terrorist".
And I don't have to chose a group, but the strongest is abusing its position, it's like David against Goliath, but this time Goliath is Israel.

There you go.

You violate quite a few here.

--

Don't get me wrong, the ground action, at this point, serves no real point (at least in my opinion). Sadly, until a cease-fire is brokered, it can't really stop. Last 4-5 cease-fires in the past 2 weeks failed after Hamas couldn't hold back for even the few hours (and Israel did keep them all).
Give it a bit of time, but for now it's a useless grind for all parties involved, mostly, until a solution is there.

"

Nightmare90 wrote:

I think they still have a long way to walk bomb to knock USA off that place. :P

With the most lucid thing said already in post no.2 I've no idea how this tread made it to 12 pages, but that's okay. BTW, how is the drone murder campaign working out for ya, Amuricans?



p.s. : We should totally start another thread here in OT, about how gruesome Russians are, how world democracy is being defended in Ukraine and how Putin's daughter should be shot.

oh, and by the by, that graphic? That's ONLY Pakistan. We didn't even get to Yemen and weddings being destroyed with Hellfire AGM's.

"

Avramovic wrote:

"

Nightmare90 wrote:

I think they still have a long way to walk bomb to knock USA off that place. :P

With the most lucid thing said already in post no.2 I've no idea how this tread made it to 12 pages, but that's okay. BTW, http://drones.pitchinteractive.com

That was fantastic. Chock full of maximum truth, minimal slant and verifiable references. I'm surprised it hasn't garnered a Nobel peace prize yet. The best part of it, in my opinion, is the revelation that 2,453 people were not military, not children, not civilians.

These 2,453 represent over 3/4 of the data they give. If they can't figure out who the majority of those killed by drone strikes, then something is seriously amiss.

They didn't claim unknown either.

Their data might be valid, but this rendition of it is worse than no data at all.

The drone strikes shown represent a time period of 10 years. Compare that 3,213 death toll number with the 2,174 killed this month so far by those hi profile targets and "others."

If you don't watch it, don't comment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ugsv5u-sW0

='[.]'=

This is the most annoying necro in a long time.