Why Spectral Throw has a place in the game, unlike what many whiners say

Your suggestion does nothing for the problem I've now pointed out 3 times already: The problem that ST is not inline with melee.

Also, again, I'm not ranting..

And also, again, I don't want to see ST change to fix melee but to make it in line with melee.

So in Mickey Mouse language: ST should be treated as a pure ranged skill and the design should change so that it's not a ranged melee skill anymore...

You're telling me to say all I want, yet you clearly want me to say that I want ST changed to fix melee. YOU can say all you want but it's simply not true as without ST in the game melee is still very unbalanced with ranged in my opinion.

What you can't seem to accept is that i don't want it to be in line with melee, you should be happy that not everything using a melee weapon is mechanically inferior.

You are saying: It's not inferior like other melee so let's break it.

Maybe the fundamental problem is that you don't understand that melee will never be as efficient as ranged, you aren't willing to accept that and continue to go on in the mindset that it can be balanced.

One of the fundamental things that need to be changed for that to happen is monster hp levels and clearing speeds in the game, clearing speeds that GGG has already adjusted to what they want. Given the huge differences in gear levels there is, you'd need to give mosnters something liek 5 times or more hp before melee will start being comparable. Not going to happen pal.

Indeed because you have not motivated your opinion in any way, except by telling me that you're having fun with ST.
You know what would be fun too? Clearing the entire map with 1 mouse click. I think it would be fun so it's complete legit right? Not really..

And again, please don't put words in my mouth. First I don't want to "break" ST, in my opinion it is already broken because it doesn't match up with the design of melee gameplay, skills and builds.
Secondly I don't want to change ST because it's "not inferior like other melee" but simply because it's a ranged skill so it usually should not even be used by melee builds but instead by ranged builds.

Please explain to me why do you think that ranged will always be more efficient as melee? What I know is that ranged will always be more safe as that is the concept of being ranged in the first place. But more efficient? Please elaborate...

Your solutions to drastically increase monster HP to balance melee and ranged doesnt make any sense whatsoever...

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Startkabels wrote:

Your solutions to drastically increase monster HP to balance melee and ranged doesnt make any sense whatsoever...

Maybe because you don't fathom what i'm attempting to communicate to you?

It doesnt even matter because it's a different discussion.

Based on our discussion ontopic I cannot find any good argument your wrote that backs your opinion to keep ST in it's current form except that you're having fun.

Oh boy, a chance to post some simple math. Or you can skip the math and read the last paragraph.

Level 20 Double Strike, one of the most popular single target melee abilities, hits twice at 70% effectiveness (for 140% total) and scales physical damage by an additional 76%.
Level 20 Spectral Throw usually hits twice at 65% effectiveness (for 130% total) and scales projectile damage by an additional 57%.

If you are scaling damage with Anger, Wrath, or elemental damage in general (which most high DPS non-spell builds do), Spectral Throw can do more damage to a single target than Double Strike because it scales projectile damage, including elemental damage. The only other ability in the game which does, to my knowledge, is Lightning Arrow. Of course, Spectral Throw doesn't just hit a single target.

Some people will bring up the options for support gems for melee, especially Multistrike. It's worth noting that level 20 Multistrike gets 107% more attack speed and 36% less damage, meaning you increase DPS by (1-.36)*(2.07) = 32.48%, plus the 67% bonus to melee physical damage (at 20% quality), which adds maybe another 10-15% real physical DPS. That's a pretty good multiplier for physical DPS, almost as good as Melee Physical Damage support, but not that exceptional for the non-physical portion. If you're serious about doing damage, a lot of it will come from Anger and Wrath.

Moreover, the only option to do AOE with Double Strike is Melee Splash. With it, you will do 16% less damage to the primary target and 31% less to everything else, plus the 57% increased melee physical damage, which adds back again about 8-13% physical damage multiplier. Overall, this means you'll do about 92-97% physical damage and 84% elemental damage to the primary target, plus 77%-82% physical damage and 69% elemental damage to targets very close to the primary target.

Spectral Throw already hits several targets without any support gems, but it is popular to use LMP against groups of enemies. Because the total amount of additional % elemental damage + % projectile damage normally seen in a build is usually less than the total amount of additional % melee physical damage, the 38% increased projectile damage actually does a lot to soften the DPS hit of 30% less projectile damage. If, for example, you already had 100% increased elemental damage from passives and gear, 57% increased projectile damage from Spectral Throw, and 15% increased projectile damage from Ballistic Mastery, you would do
(1-.3)*(1+1.00+.57+.15+.38)/(1+1.00+.57+.15) = 79.78% of the original damage you did before to an even larger group of enemies, plus 10% attack speed at 20% quality. Not bad for the additional coverage, and the area covered is much larger than what Melee Splash offers.

What is my point here? Spectral Throw is already almost as good as Double Strike for single target physical damage and better for single target elemental damage. It is also undeniably better for dealing with large groups of monsters. And best of all, damage is dealt at range so you're less vulnerably.

So how do we fix this?

First of all, Spectral Throw really shines with elemental damage and the most significant sources of elemental damage are Anger and Wrath. If those auras were changed in some way, either by dropping the damage and reducing the mana reserve to compensate, or by changing their mechanics entirely, it would go a long way toward bringing Spectral Throw (and other ranged skills which use and abuse them) into line with melee.

The 3% projectile damage per level could also be changed to physical damage, just like every other weapon-based attack in the game except Lightning Arrow. Yes, even Burning Arrow, Ice Shot, Power Siphon, and Split Arrow scale physical damage with each level up, not projectile damage. This makes a big difference for elemental damage considering how (relatively) scarce % increased elemental and % increased projectile damage are.

Even without considering elemental damage, Spectral Throw usually hits twice at 65% damage effectiveness for a total of 130% damage, almost as much as Double Strike's 140%. Ending progression at 60% as it was "pre-nerf" (i.e. pre-race-nerf) would bring this down to 120% total, which would also make it less overwhelmingly popular while still being a good option.

GGG could also consider finding new ways of improving melee abilities, but I think melee abilities are mostly well-balanced as is. Only a couple need serious tweaking.

Finally, GGG could consider mechanic changes, but I think that would be too unpopular at this point for people who like the mechanics or "feel" of the skill. Spectral Throw is really nice in the control it gives characters for not only choosing where to send a projectile, but for choosing how it comes back to you as dictated by your movement. This, combined with the movement one normally takes for survival purposes, actually creates a need for the player to think about their strategy for dealing with groups when Spectral Throw isn't one- or two-shotting every pack in the game. But there's the problem -- Spectral Throw one- or two-shots every pack in the game with a good weapon, Anger, and Wrath. Changing those things which make Spectral Throw overpowered also gives it a place in the game.

tl;dr Spectral Throw is overpowered as is, but can be re-balanced easily and can definitely have a place in the game. Read the last paragraph.

So I skipped all of your math, but what's your suggestion? How would you change ST?

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Startkabels wrote:

So I skipped all of your math, but what's your suggestion? How would you change ST?

That's in the rest of the post. It's important to know why Spectral Throw is overpowered if you want to consider ways to fix it. As such, if you want to know my suggestions for fixing it along with justifications, read the rest of the post.

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Crackmonster wrote:

Maybe the fundamental problem is that you don't understand that melee will never be as efficient as ranged, you aren't willing to accept that and continue to go on in the mindset that it can be balanced.

You're still on that nonsense? Oh boy...


A decent post there Creon.

Well I think it's well written but have to disagree with you.

I disagree because also you threat ST as a melee skill, for example comparing it with Double Strike.

ST is a ranged skill and I think it should be treated as such. It is alright if ranged skills do more damage but they have to be used by corresponding builds, so character that are build for being ranged because character like that in general ought to trade off defensive stats.

So the problem in my opinion is that ST functions like a ranged skill but is actually a ranged skill perfectly compatible with melee builds and that's wrong.

ST does not help melee like other skills such as multistrike helped melee, ST is not a solution but instead a controversial workaround.