Why Spectral Throw has a place in the game, unlike what many whiners say

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The assumption that ranged > melee is simply utterly hilarious and wrong.

It's all a matter of balance. It's incredibly easy to make it so melee > ranged (like making double strike do 500% weapon damage, see if anyone uses ranged then). It's incredibly easy to make it so ranged > melee, the situation we have now.

Ranged isn't inherently superior to melee. That's only true in the current balance situation. There's countless other ways this game could've been balanced to make melee > ranged.

Unfortunately the hard part is finding situation where melee ~= ranged. The solution to that however isn't to stop trying, it's to simply get as close as possible even if you won't ever reach it.

Range> melee has nothing to do with dps or damage, its everything to due with...range and attack dispersion and the existence of chain + lmp/gmp.


Even if your reave did a billion damage, capable of instantly destroying anything it would still be slower than a ranged lmp+chain projectile that did less damage but covered an entire one and a half screen and propagates between enemies.

At the very highest level of build and gear, both range and melee can reach a point where they one shot most or all mobs.


cranking up the damage multiplier of a melee skill to compensate for intrinsic disadvantages is not only lazy but also dangerous because you now have low tier build and gear able to one shot bosses.

ST should either have far shot or point blank built in to the skill. Probably far shot.

Currently the skill is not only a good ranged skill, but still good at melee too. It's too perfectly versatile. I'm ok with it existing but not with it being the end-all be-all melee skill in the game.

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Nephalim wrote:

"

The assumption that ranged > melee is simply utterly hilarious and wrong.

It's all a matter of balance. It's incredibly easy to make it so melee > ranged (like making double strike do 500% weapon damage, see if anyone uses ranged then). It's incredibly easy to make it so ranged > melee, the situation we have now.

Ranged isn't inherently superior to melee. That's only true in the current balance situation. There's countless other ways this game could've been balanced to make melee > ranged.

Unfortunately the hard part is finding situation where melee ~= ranged. The solution to that however isn't to stop trying, it's to simply get as close as possible even if you won't ever reach it.

Range> melee has nothing to do with dps or damage, its everything to due with...range and attack dispersion and the existence of chain + lmp/gmp.


Even if your reave did a billion damage, capable of instantly destroying anything it would still be slower than a ranged lmp+chain projectile that did less damage but covered an entire one and a half screen and propagates between enemies.

At the very highest level of build and gear, both range and melee can reach a point where they one shot most or all mobs.


cranking up the damage multiplier of a melee skill to compensate for intrinsic disadvantages is not only lazy but also dangerous because you now have low tier build and gear able to one shot bosses.

The 500% damage double strike was a bad example for overleveled/overgeared content (which unfortunately makes up a rather large part of PoE's endgame).

A better example would be a 200% movement speed Cyclone without desync.

Clear speed against such content is dictated by range, AoE, attack/cast speed and movement speed.

This means that if ranged has the advantage in range and AoE then melee must have an equal advantage in attack speed and movement speed.

The difficulty there lies in PoE's technical issue which cause major desync when using movement skills like Cyclone, Leap Slam and Whirling Blades, exactly the skills melee could and should be used for such content as well as the simple fact that where desync ever solved ranged could use said skills as well.

The latter might perhaps be solved by an unique keystone completely preventing damage to enemies outside weapon range (default to 5 for Bows and Wands) but granting much more mobility and survivability.

A game that have many build options and is very balanced is dark souls 2.I just finished it.Even though it is crazy hard and also has rediculous spike damage,i finished it,without using a single spell,or a bow,and not using a shield at all.Just dual weilding,whigh damage glass cannon,and it was possible non the less.Also my gear was prtty basic,only towards the end i upgraded it,and the difference didnt even feel that grea.That was the issue with the witcher 2 as well.PoE has alot to learn from games like that,rather than focusing on hordes of monsters with rediculous AI,that urges u just to one click 1 aoe skill all the time.Sure,diablo was like that as well,but that damn game is outdated,it was good for it's time.

Now back to the issue,witht the gorge clear speed thread,it was proven that low life ST has the absolute highest clear speed,while having all the other advantages(better mobility,better survivability than bows and infinetely better boss slaying ability).The skill is unbalanced,and it would just rather lead to nerfing dagger passives instead of core mechanics.I said it before,melee cannot use a nerf at all,even on dagger passives.It needs BETTER passives for all the other weapons,except daggers and claws,and better defensive options.An all around nerf to low life + CoE combo for ranged attacks is needed,and a big adjustment to spectral throw,and i am standing by my point,that the best thing to do is to remove it's piercing.

Crackmonster,you don't seem to be getting the point.Sure ranged>malee,but ST,that uses the passives and the weapons of melee builds,and becomes the strongest skill in the game,is a big fuck you to all melee users.It should be a support attack,period.And you can still have the other OP skill to use if you wish.But at it's current state it is not healthy for the game.

It's fine, no one here saying spectral throw can't be nerfed, neither did i. I was arguing for it to have a place.

I'd rather have a skill "Weapon throw".

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Crackmonster wrote:

Your problem is it whipes you in the face just how bad melee is, so you think it'll help you to remove the thing which reminds you, but it is not going to improve melee to remove it.

You're raging about spectral, but your issue is melee. Many games have taken the route of killing everything powerful so no one took offense, and in the end no one had something they liked.

If you've a problem with fathoming why ranged > melee, look into some earlier posts in this thread. Now, get over yourself and just play damn melee if that's what you want, because it isn't gonna be on the level of ranged ever.

As you say, this is indeed a game of balance, and you must balance what can be balanced with the rest of the game, to give endgame more variety, to create a richer game. ST can compete with the other end-game skills, melee cannot, only flicker if there was no desync. Deal with it, no amount of cries will change it and you will only bring pain to yourself letting your enjoyment depend upon it.

I wouldn't mind seeing boosts to melee only supports to boost both defense and offense. Also, i think there can be balancing done in the skill tree when it comes to what damage increases work when just using a melee weapon as opposed to actually attacking in melee.

Your problem is that you continue to miss the point, repeat yourself and even start to put words in my mouth.

You are right when you say that ST reminds you how imbalanced melee and ranged are. You're wrong when you say that I think removing ST fixes that.
I told you before: I think ST is not inline with melee as it is a ranged skill that any melee character should use if they want to be most efficient. I don't know how to put it more clearly for you but when a ranged skill will outperform any melee skill for melee based builds, something is clearly wrong.

Also I'm not raging at all and I don't know what gives you that idea. I'm carefully writing my post in a polite and calm way for your information.

Your remarks are really exposing your lack of proper motivation: You say that ST can compete with other skills in end game and melee cannot. Then you go on that I have to deal with it and accept it and that's your motivation. Really??

NO: ST was introduced into this game to address the imbalance of melee but it failed miserably. Instead ST is now almost a mandatory skill if you want to be a melee character that can easily compete with casters and rangers and even worse: It will effectively render your melee character to a ranger.

Theres a lot of wrong in that wall, but i'm not in the mood to point it all out.

Let's just say that no, it wasn't added just to fix melee, and two, if it was, then i'd be completely right and you are recognizing that they added it in the realization that melee will forever be mechanically inferior.

Your "inline" with melee means something different to you, because you aren't satisfied at adjusted ST to be inline with the game, no, you want to remove the ability for melee users to not be mechanically inferior so every regular melee user doesn't feel so bad about it.

Admit it! :D

My real motivation is simple: ST is a great and fun ability and i don't want it removed. Simple as that, and you might as well accept that not every melee skill will remain mechanically inferior. Next thing you'll find out how insanely overpowered molten strike is(which it is), and then you want to remove that as well.

Please stop talking for me thank you.

First I did not post a wall, if you think that is a wall of text you're a newbie to fora..

GGG did not introduce ST because they were realizing that melee can never be balanced to ranged. Actually kind of a ridiculous statement given all the effort GGG has made in order to get more balance (Combining offensive and defensive passive, introduction of melee splash/multistrike/reave for example, changes to early gameplay like movement speed penalty reduction on armour/early game attack speed etc.).

You're saying that I will not accept any adjustment to ST to bring it inline, that is completely false. I will accept that, do you have a suggestion? My suggestion was not to remove it forever for your information, my suggestion was to remove it in order to introduce it later combined with throwing weapons.

Yes your motivation doesn't give a shit about balance, because your motivation is all based on you exploiting something that is all wrong.

I rest my case

They can just change it so it does 40% of weapon base damage at level 21, a nerf of something like 39% of its damage. I don't see why something simple has to be complicated. It does too much damage for hitting the whole screen, for hitting the whole screen it should do lower damage. It's like an insane single target ability that also rapes the whole screen while single-targeting.

You can say whatever you want, melee attacks will never ever get to the level of ranged attacks in efficiency for reasons in post one at page two of this thread.

The reason i say rage is because you've gone on a rampage against ST in several threads, wanting to bring it down so melee's don't feel inferior, that is the real reason you don't like it, it makes melee look like garbage. Deny all you want, that's why you don't want it using melee weapons but want it added to throw weapons.

For some people there is nothing like throwing out big 2handers and thangs; you are want end they joy!