Low life offers to great benefits and is unique gated.

@madcow no clue what you mean, sorry sir.
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Completed 1 ChallengeBoem wrote:
@madcow no clue what you mean, sorry sir.


Haha no prob. Basically what I was trying to say is that there are 2 very different ways to get low life and so it's hard to come up with 1 overarching general fix.

the 2 methods for low life are:
1. Auras - Here any spec (except CI) can be used with an added aura on blood magic (gem) to reap low life benefits from either passives (pain attunement) or uniques (wonderlust, springleaf, etc.)

Right now, this is probably the best way to run low life without a shavs or lorica since it can put you near chaos resistance nodes on the tree. Also, you get to use mana and life so things like MoM are viable as well. Much more defensive.

2. Blood Magic keystone - Here you are quite literally pigeonholed into the corner furthest from the main low life benefit on the tree (pain attunement). This distance makes it hard to abuse without sacrifice to get there.

Also, you can't use MoM and you are no where near any chaos resistance nodes. You basically have to either get 135% chaos on gear which is a big deal after losing all mana benefits or use 1 of the 2 uniques.

----
As of now I agree that the 2 uniques (shavs and lorica) are what make low life viable end game for both methods. Chaos resist is too sparse on the tree and the loss of passives to hit those and getting that on gear is as much a sacrifice as relying on those 2 items.

----------
Summary:

aura + BM gem
Pros:
Still have mana
MoM defense viable
can be close to chaos resists nodes
can be close to pain attunement
Closer to energy shield nodes
Plenty of other aura reservation nodes nearby

Cons:
Chaos damage requires chaos on gear
Larger life pool needed so 30% left life is enough to survive chaos attacks


Blood Magic Keystone:
Pros:
Close to life nodes
Mortal Conviction for auras
Close to marauder tree for armor and relatively close to IR

Cons:
No mana pool to work with
MoM can not be used
energy shield nodes far away
pain attunement very far away
chaos resist nodes very far away
Chaos damage more difficult to mitigate


--------------------

With all the negatives to the BM keystone I think that's where GGG should focus.

Suggestions on making Blood Magic Keystone more worthwhile all have to do with mitigating chaos damage. This makes the most sense since those 2 uniques that really are the gate to making low life viable do so by modifying how chaos damage is handled.

Any of these would work

1. Add a fair amount of chaos resists to the Blood Magic keystone itself.

2. Add a small cluster of nodes after blood magic for chaos resist leading to mortal conviction (just like acrobatics does with dodge before hitting phase and CI does with ES before hitting infused).

3. Have blood magic keystone (or a 2nd keystone after) that changes chaos damage into a random element. Either 100% or 75%

Any of these would open up more low life builds through the blood magic keystone while keeping the ability to abuse low life away from those getting their through bm gem and aura.
ign Standard - Charliework , There_Is_No_Try , TheForceIsStrong , ThereisAnother
Pacific (GMT -8) Time
"
Completed 1 ChallengeBoem wrote:
What the tittle says.

First off,

Dev's original design from my PoV

I believe the intention of the devs with the "low-life" attribute originally was designed to be used as a "temporary" buff to a character.(this explains the benefits of this particular buff, both on items and passives and is logical when viewed from this point)

However, it is quite clear the community decided to disagree with the dev's and utilize
"low-life" as a static benefit (either all or nothing sort of speak) because of this, i think it is time for the dev's to conform to the players on this point. And balance this attribute accordingly.

But low life is not unique gated?

In theory, this is true. However given the addition of high damage chaos monster types has shifted this balance to "unique gated only", i am thinking about the invasion bosses for instance, poison zombie's with map affixes and maps released with act3x having bosses that utilize high end dps chaos attacks.

I would agree that prior to act3x low life was not unique gated (i even have a char that does it without shavs/lorica(<- did not exist then) and it functioned within that game-state, however currently it can not like stated above the addition of new chaos oriented balance has shifted this)

What can be done to remedy the current state of low-life?

These are my personal suggestions and i hope you give them some thought before dismissing them.

1) low life attribute should be activated at 55%hp (a change of name could be appropriate in this case)

reasoning behind this :

The dev's have always stated no unique should be BiS for any build, however due to the new introduction of chaos mobs, shavronnes has become far better then any viable ES/+life hybrid chest that could be utilized prior to this addition to the game.
Simply put, it is BiS for a build oriented around this mechanic.

This makes it a unique that spits on the developers unique design philosophy within the current state of the game.

Making the attribute activate at 55% life would enable rares to compete with shavronnes.
The one benefit that would make shavronnes trully "unique" would be the additional aura's one could have compared to a "rare chest" user, but the "rare chest" user in return could reach higher EHP value's.

This removes shavronnes from BiS state, while still retaining it's usefulness. (= balance?)

2) Low life attributes should be nerfed, and quite harshly! (the benefits are actually "balanced" around not running around in this state all the time, as such they are far to rewarding in it's current state given the community decided it's an "all or nothing" attribute)

reasoning behind this :

Since in its current form low-life is gated, the rewards are far to extreme to serve its purpose. The ability to run "additional aura's" might as well be the only reward one gets from this attribute and it would still suffice to make these builds very powerful and balanced.

The reason why i suggest nerfing the benefits is in line with the thought about raising the low-life cap to 55%.

This would enable a higher variety of builds to utilize this property and make this property not unique exclusive, but also "rare item" viable if so desired.(heavy investment would be required, but so is getting a shavs imo?)

Keep in mind point 1) and 2) are suppose to co-exist to be balanced and not individually implemented.

I think this change is long due and is very "build crippling" and also prevents certain player-enjoyment. (in the sense that for fun build X one needs item Y and no other item will substitute item Y within the current game-state)

Some discussion about this would be appreciated.

And for all the shav users out there, sorry. :o)
But i think you guys know it from first hand that the benefits are just far superior to the downsides in a very unhealthy way. And the low-life state (at 35%) is actually very crippling for builds.

Not to mention i never see a shavs used for "full life build" for example (melee full life MORE gem) and the reason is simple, shavs is the go to item for low-life builds, while in essence it equally allows a "full life benefit build". Just that those benefits are
neglectable compared to "low-life" benefits.

tl;dr low-life mechanic was not designed around a static state but around a short period "buff", since the community decided it is a static attribute the dev's should balance it accordingly and enable more build diversity.

Peace all.

Keep it civil, i just want a better game state, i have no issue with shavs since it is the build enabler, my issue lie's within the "low-life" attribute and its benefits on top of benefits.


I think this is another case of, "I can't afford something so I don't like it."
<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Flickfrap's Lowlife Flick Build- http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/832799
<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Its definitely dumb that there is a keystone for low life builds but no one uses it without certain high end uniques. Doesn't look like good design.
Tilt
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LoPan wrote:
I think this is another case of, "I can't afford something so I don't like it."
IGN: JoyfulPotato
My shop: 679526
My currency making guide: 955058
This game is awesome because GGG ignores your opinions and suggestions. You don't know what do you want. GGG created game you will play, not the game you will like.
"
Completed 1 ChallengeBoem wrote:


The dev's have always stated no unique should be BiS for any build, however due to the new introduction of chaos mobs, shavronnes has become far better then any viable ES/+life hybrid chest that could be utilized prior to this addition to the game.
Simply put, it is BiS for a build oriented around this mechanic


You've based your whole concept on a completely false statement. The devs have never ever said that. What they have actually said though, was that no unique should be BIS for ALL builds. They have always said that uniques should be build enabling. They are meant to be BIS in certain builds. Shavs is BIS for lowlife. Rise of the Phoenix is BIS for Righteous Fire. Alpha's Howl is BIS for an aura build. Bringer of Rain is BiS for a Blender build. There's a reason why some uniques cost so much. It's because they are BiS for certain builds. GGG has done nothing but encourage this. If they didn't want powerful uniques that enabled specific types of builds, they wouldn't have them in the game. What you're proposing is that anything powerful enough to enable a build should be nerfed or removed from the game so everybody without those uniques could make the same build. Never going to happen. And if it did, 95% of the players would quit because who wants to play a game where you don't farm for that BiS gear, either to use or to trade for something else that works for your build?

Beside, calling 55% 'low life' is absurd. At best you'd be 'more than half but not quite two-thirds' life. If it's low-life that is too powerful, nerf that. But taking away the best items to make the builds is the worst solution you could have.
Guild Leader The Amazon Basin <BASIN>
Play Nice and Show Some Class www.theamazonbasin.com
Last edited by mark1030 on May 2, 2014 6:09 PM
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LoPan wrote:
I think this is another case of, "I can't afford something so I don't like it."


Cool assumption bro :).

I could afford it if i wanted to, simply put i made a low-life build without shavronnes because shavronnes is the "quick cheesy" fix to the otherwise difficult game mechanic known as "low-life" benefits.

And i prefer difficulty over cheese, sorry?. . .

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Completed 2 Challengesmark1030 wrote:
You've based your whole concept on a completely false statement. The devs have never ever said that. What they have actually said though, was that no unique should be BIS for ALL builds. They have always said that uniques should be build enabling. They are meant to be BIS in certain builds. Shavs is BIS for lowlife. Rise of the Phoenix is BIS for Righteous Fire. Alpha's Howl is BIS for an aura build. Bringer of Rain is BiS for a Blender build. There's a reason why some uniques cost so much. It's because they are BiS for certain builds. GGG has done nothing but encourage this. If they didn't want powerful uniques that enabled specific types of builds, they wouldn't have them in the game. What you're proposing is that anything powerful enough to enable a build should be nerfed or removed from the game so everybody without those uniques could make the same build. Never going to happen. And if it did, 95% of the players would quit because who wants to play a game where you don't farm for that BiS gear, either to use or to trade for something else that works for your build?

Beside, calling 55% 'low life' is absurd. At best you'd be 'more than half but not quite two-thirds' life. If it's low-life that is too powerful, nerf that. But taking away the best items to make the builds is the worst solution you could have.


All the unique's you listed in that statement/argument are not BiS, a build based around rare items will far surpass them given enough currency and time.

The one exception to that statement is shavronnes atm. Simply because the attribute is gated and cannot be compensated by rare top-tier attributes. In all other cases, top-tier rares will be better then the unique's you listed.

Sorry your argument is based on false-logic. The reason those unique's are so popular is because the "top-tier" rares i am talking about will most likely cost you triple what those unique's cost.(if not more)

@madcow :

I have a low-life build (post 2 in this thread is the gear i used for this build) that was viable to perform prior to act3x release. It has 64 chaos resist if i am not mistaken in mercilles. I tested the new content with it and even with 75 chaos resist some new
"chaos damage nukes" can do up to 1500 damage in a single hit.(with 75 resist)

Just saying, the chaos resistance holds little relevance since i tested it with max value's already and it is still impossible. It's about being able to absorb the highest possible chaos hit in the game, since this "limit" was pushed up, "rare item low life" builds are no longer viable.

And this is the core issue of my problem. If the chaos spike damage was reduced to a "viable" threshold that did not require shavronnes, this thread would not exist.

Pre act3x the highest chaos spike damage in the game where "poison mines", there detonation damage, not the DoT after it. This damage was roughly around 340 dps with 64% chaos resistance without map damage modifiers in a lvl 72 map environment.

(my character has 460hp when i turn him to "low-life" status, so in practice i was able to do low-life without cheesing it with shavronnes, but paying attention to the game and reacting to it in time)

Also i laugh with people assuming i cant afford a shavronnes simply because i refuse to cheese it and enjoy challenging myself in this game.

Really, you guys are funny, i wonder what you guys play for but i play for fun, not bot-like cheesefesting it :).

Peace.
Have you tried using a Saffell's Frame? I had little difficulty playing low life without a problem as long as you're aware of the environment you're in. I actually specc'd that character out of Zealot's Oath so I could do chaos maps. 79 chaos resist and a decent amount of life is plenty if you know that the monsters you encounter do chaos damage. I'll never own a shavs but a Solaris Lorica iis within my price range. I doubt I'll get one though because I've got other characters I like better now.

Low life can be built without shavs just like those other uniques can be built without for those builds. I'm fact, with the Solaris Lorica available now, it's quite easy to make a low life build if you want to do it easy and cheap.
Guild Leader The Amazon Basin <BASIN>
Play Nice and Show Some Class www.theamazonbasin.com
Last edited by mark1030 on May 2, 2014 6:55 PM
"
"
LoPan wrote:
I think this is another case of, "I can't afford something so I don't like it."

/thread
IGN TylordRampage
"
Nephalim wrote:
low life destroyed game balance as did atziri gloves.


mirrors and <censored> destroyed game balance.

CoC didn't do much for it either.

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