Multistrike vs Minion Damage
" shipped to standard cuz the previous leagues ended....cuz you know, I've been playing more than a week? and yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you. base aps is irrelevant to multipliers. and repeat 2 times doesn't affect dps at all. sounds like you just don't understand math or this game's mechanics and if you take your head out of your ass for a second, I was only doing the elemental multiplier in my math post. 20/20 minion damage is 10% more w+a dps than ms, even if you took every min damage node in the tree I don't even know why you're using mpd over md if you don't care about their physical damage...but then again I'm not really surprised judging by your judgement......... | |
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im not even using mpd, my build is element wtf....
theory does not equate what happens in reality, and your own theory is insufficient and flawed. merely point that out to u and u still insist on your multistrike is shit/use minion dmg crusade. if you think srs is shit skill in your opinion ok. if you think its weaker than say 6l coc or shave/coe, ok, DUH. dont come dissing builds for nothing when players are trying to make it work, especially with your multistrike is shit crusade. "repeat 2 additional times DOESNT AFFECT DPS AT ALL" lol ok. peace to u and your paper dps. |
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" really? you think 3 attacks in 3 seconds is more dps than 1 in 1 second? chock full of credibility you are never even dissed your build. your epeen was just too butthurt to accept basic facts Last edited by testinglk on Apr 25, 2014, 2:32:09 AM
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Hmmm, and yet I still do not know what to do.
But I saw some useful info here. Thanks guys. |
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MULTISTRIKE vs. MINION DAMAGE
-------------- Multistrike (red socket) -------------- +) 107% more attack speed @ level 20 +) 54% increased melee physical damage @ 20% quality -) 36% less damage -) Melee attack repeats 2 times - this is more a visual effect, as it does not add any more damage (more accurately, it's for the server's sake). Though it does have gameplay implications. Minions will not move until they have completed all three attacks, regardless if the target has already died, wasting time. Minions will also spread the attacks around to nearby enemies, which reduces focus-firing. Meaning more enemies left alive at low health, able to continue doing their attacks and special abilities. Blind, Life on Hit, and other on-hit checks benefit from this triple-attack, however. ~~ vs. ~~ -------------- Minion Damage (blue socket) -------------- +) 77% increased minion damage @ level 20 +) 14% increased minon damage @ 20% quality EDIT: Oops, just noticed I put Minion Damage's quality at 14%, not 15%. I don't feel up to rewriting all these calculations, though, so suffice it to say MD does slightly more DeePS than shown here. ~~ w/ ~~ -------------- Summon Raging Spirit (blue socket) -------------- +) 293-438 damage (365 average) @ level 20 +) 1.63 attack speed @ level 20 ~~ & ~~ -------------- Spell Totem (red socket) -------------- -) 50% less damage _____________________________ CASE 1: Above gems only. No passives, auras, or curses are considered. -------------- MULTISTRIKE -------------- 179 damage = 365 * 1.54 * 0.64 * 0.5 3.37 attack speed = 1.63 * 2.07 603 DPS = 179 * 3.37 (note: lower physical damage is subjected to higher mitigation from enemy armor) -------------- MINION DAMAGE -------------- 348 damage = 365 * 1.91 * 0.5 1.63 attack speed = no changes 567 DPS = 348 * 1.63 ~~ VERDICT ~~ Multistrike wins by 6% when armor is not factored. Due to the Summon Raging Spirit's fire damage conversion, armor only matters to 50% of the DPS. _____________________________ CASE 2: Full minion passives and the auras Anger, Wrath, and Haste. Aura passives and curses not considered. -------------- Minion Passives (all 6 clusters) -------------- +) 105% minion damage +) 20% minion attack speed -------------- Anger (red socket) -------------- +) 94-156 (125 average) fire damage @ level 20 -------------- Wrath (blue socket) -------------- +) 18-282 (150 average) lightning damage @ level 20 -------------- Haste (green socket) -------------- +) 16% increased attack speed @ level 20 ~~ LET'S CALCULATE! ~~ -------------- MULTISTRIKE -------------- 302 base damage = 365 * 2.59 [= 1 + 1.05 + 0.54] * 0.64 * 0.5 82 Anger damage = 125 * 2.05 * 0.64 * 0.5 98 Wrath damage = 150 * 2.05 * 0.64 * 0.5 4.58 attack speed = 1.63 * 1.36 [= 1 + 0.2 + 0.16] * 2.07 1383 base DPS = 302 * 4.58 375 Anger DPS = 82 * 4.58 448 Wrath DPS = 98 * 4.58 2206 total DPS = 1383 + 375 + 448 -------------- MINION DAMAGE -------------- 540 base damage = 365 * 2.96 [= 1 + 1.05 + 0.91] * 0.5 185 Anger damage = 125 * 2.96 [= 1 + 1.05 + 0.91] * 0.5 222 Wrath damage = 150 * 2.96 [= 1 + 1.05 + 0.91] * 0.5 2.21 attack speed = 1.63 * 1.36 [= 1 + 0.2 + 0.16] 1113 base DPS = 504 * 2.21 408 Anger DPS = 185 * 2.21 490 Wrath DPS = 222 * 2.21 2011 total DPS = 1113 + 408 + 490 ~~ VERDICT ~~ Multistrike wins by 9% when armor is not factored into base damage. _____________________________ CASE 3: Hatred! -------------- Hatred (green socket) -------------- +) 36% of physical damage added as cold damage @ level 20 ~~ LET'S CALCULATE! ~~ -------------- MULTISTRIKE -------------- 302 base physical damage = 365 * 2.59 [= 1 + 1.05 + 0.54] * 0.64 * 0.5 71 Hatred damage = 302 * 0.36 * 2.05 * 0.64 * 0.5 4.58 attack speed = 1.63 * 1.36 [= 1 + 0.2 + 0.16] * 2.07 325 Hatred DPS = 71 * 4.58 -------------- MINION DAMAGE -------------- 540 base physical damage = 365 * 2.96 [= 1 + 1.05 + 0.91] * 0.5 287 Hatred damage = 540 * 0.36 * 2.96 [= 1 + 1.05 + 0.91] * 0.5 2.21 attack speed = 1.63 * 1.36 [= 1 + 0.2 + 0.16] 634 Hatred DPS = * 2.21 ~~ REMATCH! ~~ If we use Hatred for Minion Damage in Case 2, how does it re-compare to Multistrike? 2206 total Multistrike DPS = 1383 + 375 (Anger) + 448 (Wrath) 2237 total Minion Damage DPS = 1113 + 634 (Hatred) + 490 (Wrath) ~~ VERDICT ~~ Minion Damage wins by 1.3% when Hatred is used, closing up the previous gap due to not being double-hit with another LESS DAMAGE modifier. When DPS is the same, consider that bigger, slower hits are more likely to trigger status effects, while smaller, faster hits may never surpass the minimum duration cutoff. _____________________________ CLOSING COMMENTS Multistrike would pull a bit further ahead with aura passives boosting the attack speed effect of the Haste aura, due to being a MORE multiplier. All in all, Multistrike really needs a baseline INCREASE attack speed to multiply off of, like from the support gem Faster Attacks, to compensate for the LESS damage. Otherwise, it's not much better than another INCREASE, due to the cons of it spreading out its damage and rooting the minion until the attack cycle completes. Minion Damage has stronger elemental DPS -- it's actually only losing on physical damage (due to MS's Quality bonus), which will be affected by armor in Minion Damage's favor. If you add in elemental curses and EE, Minion Damage is looking even better. Last edited by Hercanic on Apr 25, 2014, 2:53:59 PM
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Thanks for this post.
Some things become clearer now. |
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baseline ias is irrelevant to a more multiplier, as, as the name implies, they stack multiplicative
example, 0% ias vs +200% ias. assume 100 damage and 1 aps for easy maths, and 100% more ias. damage multipliers are constant, and are therefore omitted without ms: 100*1*1 = 100 100*1*3 = 300 with ms: 100*2 = 200 300*2 = 600 change in dps due to adding ms (100% more ias): [editted for clarity] 200/100 = 2 600/300 = 2 it's winning in the second case due to the addition of min damage passives reducing the effectiveness of increased damage, not the ias it really boils down to how well your setup can make use of srs's base damage vs use of auras. looking at these calculations, base damage is still a huge factor. looking at case 2 " here we see minion damage giving more anger and wrath dps, and losing out on base damage (as my first post said it would). however, a wrath anger build would have much higher base values for wrath anger due to aura nodes, which would tilt the difference even further, even before considering enemy armor like I said...not a simple comparison with srs. not simple at all =/ Last edited by testinglk on Apr 26, 2014, 3:53:03 PM
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Adding in Faster attacks with Wrath + Anger makes Multistrike pull way ahead of minion damage.
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" ...how'd that rumor even get started anyways | |
" Hm? I don't understand why you're comparing them that way. Your third stage just flips what you did in the second stage, so of course they'd come out proportional. When you add Multistrike, it doubles whatever you've got. Multistrike without IAS deals 200, compared to 600 with IAS. 600/200 = 3 times the damage. 1 = Baseline 2 = MS 3 = IAS 6 = IAS + MS A MORE multiplier benefits from INCREASE and additional MORE multipliers. _____________________________ CASE A: Is IAS irrelevant to a MORE multipler? 100 damage 1.0 attack speed -------------- Example M (for Multiply!) -------------- 100% MORE attack speed from Multistrike 200% INCREASED attack speed from Example ~~ vs. ~~ -------------- Example L (for Lonely!) -------------- 300% MORE attack speed from Vaal Multistrike, introduced in Patch 6.6.6 0% INCREASED attack speed because we be poor ~~ vs. ~~ -------------- Example I (for Increase!) -------------- 0% MORE attack speed, because, f*ck Multistrike! 100% INCREASED attack speed from Vaal Haste aura, introduced in Patch 1.3.3.7 200% INCREASED attack speed from Being Awesome passive ~~ PREDICTION ~~ Example M will beat Example L and I. Example L and I will be the same. ~~ LET'S CALCULATE! ~~ 6.0 Example M attack speed = 1 * 2 * 3 4.0 Example L attack speed = 1 * 4 4.0 Example I attack speed = 1 * (1 + 1 + 2) 600 Example M DPS = 100 * 6 400 Example L DPS = 100 * 4 400 Example I DPS = 100 * 4 ~~ VERDICT ~~ Example M wins by 50%. If you drop IAS down to 100% instead of 200%, Example M only wins by 33% (4 vs 3). If you raise it by another 100% (300% total), Example M wins by 60% (8 vs 5). Add another 100% (10 vs 6) and Example M wins by 66%. So as IAS increases, the disparity becomes greater, since Example M is doubling whatever we add (+2 vs +1). IAS is relevant to a MORE multiplier. It is other IAS that are irrelevant to IAS, because they are additive. |
