What is so good about trading (as opposed to better loot)?

I constantly see people defending PoE being centered around trading with arguments like this:

- If you don't like trading play D3
- If you don't like trading you are antisocial
- You are too lazy
- You are too dumb

Spoiler
I don't mind trading, I traded in other games, in one or two I even was what you could call a AH-hogger. But I don't like trading in games like PoE. I think the constant action, the skill spamming, the massive amount of loot, the RNG, the potential build-diversity, they all point in one direction: Making your chars with what you have fought for, for good or for bad.
This seems especially true for PoE with its 4-month leagues and its demand for better than average gear in end-game.


People who defend the "bad" droprates often say things like:

- If the droprates were better people would have BiS gear too soon and get bored
- If the droprates were better this would be a game for casuals, while now this is a game for hardcore-players

All of this basically sums up what you can read here over and over again. But none of this is true! And it's so weird to see it time and time again as if some sort of "serious" point was made, while any one of these points can easily be ripped to shreds without any effort.

So while logic seems to fail some people here (big-time!), there has to be another explanation why so much (self-) righteousness and emphasis is being applied to such bullshit.
The only answer I can come up with is: Some people just love trading. They love it so much that they are blind to any one side not sharing their love. And consequently, people not sharing their love must have some sort of deficiency. Otherwise this lack of love is not explainable to them.

This is the only way I can explain this immense irrationality that some people show up with here. Why some people assume, people who want better loot and less trade dependency want BiS gear without any effort - while nobody (except one) ever talked about BiS gear (but, for example, rather talk about how they would like to try out lots of different builds but feel that they cannot because the drops almost never justify making a new char with them).
Or why they go in full hyperbole mode and say, people will get bored and leave in two weeks if the drops were any better. As if there were no middle-ground.

And a combination of SFL and better drops gets some flak as well, and almost always with the same non-sensical points as above.

But maybe a love for trading is not the answer. I wouldn't know because I don't have any. Trading can be fun at times, and I think it's good to always have this option. But this fanaticism? All the ad-hominems? The blindness to blatantly obvious fallacies?

Where do they come from???
Last edited by Jojas on Apr 22, 2014, 10:10:07 PM
The irony of it all is that the people who don't play the game but trade non stop have BIS gear and still stick around. They think if people could find the same gear they trade for that those people would quit playing. None of this matters in the slightest though because the game was build around the economy and GGG refuses to change that. According to GGG the economy is the most important thing in the game.
I fully agree that there is an irony to this, and when I see my wishes for the game, a sad one at that. Sad, because I think PoE could be so much better than that, but the fixating on trade not only lessens its greatness but also attracts the wrong sort of people. Not only cheaters, scammers, flippers and RMTers, but people whose main motivations are greed and the need to feel better than anyone else.

After all, trading is the shortcut to a very strong char. And the hysterical reactions that you can sometimes see to SFL and similar suggestions seems to suggest that these people are afraid to lose these shortcuts.
If things were more drop- and less trade-dependent (say, with limited trade or in an SFL), it wouldn't be so easy to copy and paste builds and then just play endlessly until you have the currency to buy the gear you need from your shopping list. And suddenly you run the risk of having only a mediocre char and there is no loophole through which you could wiggle out of that.
Last edited by Jojas on Apr 22, 2014, 10:50:55 PM
All of that is wrong? According to who? Some random like you with no argument? Lmao, cool story kid.

The funny thing is people like Midnitecloud are so utterly terrible at the game they they seriously think people trade constantly to get BiS gear. I have a kaoms in invasion, I have many other exalts of gear too, and guess what? I barely trade, anyone that is even worthy of an opinion on stuff like this has a shop and they know how to price things and they spend a few minutes between maps or boss runs to trade. It's not hard to make currency.

And you call trading a shortcut? I guess the 5 weeks it took me to earn the currency to buy my kaoms was a "shortcut" and increased drop rates must actually be making the game harder.


Also, it looks like you're a standard player, and then you wonder why you can't make currency or get the "best" items in a league with such an utterly fucked economy? Are you serious?
Last edited by oBLACKIECHANo on Apr 23, 2014, 12:48:06 AM
I am curious whether or not GGG wanted to base their game around trading.

If so they would have created a better trading system already.

To think, we used to trade by dropping stuff on the ground lol (back in beta days)..

On the contrary, I recall one of the stories GGG had was talking about D2, and one of the cool things that would happen is if you found a certain unique item.. that you would then go build an entirely new character around.

Yet now the situation is reversed, you don't find an item and figure out a build. Now you pick a build (either from forum, asking others, playing with the passive tree simulator..or going to those build of the week videos), and then go and find that item (usually by trading).

So... might have side tracked a bit but I guess the question is:

What IS GGG's stance on how players should accumulate items and create builds?
"Path of Exile is an online Action RPG set in the dark fantasy world of Wraeclast. We're a small independent team of hardcore gamers based in New Zealand and have created Path of Exile as the game that we'd want to play ourselves. It is designed around a strong barter-based online item economy, deep character customisation, competitive PvP and ladder races."

bolded, this game is for hardcore traders. who says it's about having fun killing mob and bosses? none.

look carefully "created Path of Exile as the game that we'd want to play ourselves." they just want to play trading game, GGG is just another capitalist game dev and our money has always been their goal. lol.
...
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wooli wrote:
I am curious whether or not GGG wanted to base their game around trading.

If so they would have created a better trading system already.

To think, we used to trade by dropping stuff on the ground lol (back in beta days)..

On the contrary, I recall one of the stories GGG had was talking about D2, and one of the cool things that would happen is if you found a certain unique item.. that you would then go build an entirely new character around.

Yet now the situation is reversed, you don't find an item and figure out a build. Now you pick a build (either from forum, asking others, playing with the passive tree simulator..or going to those build of the week videos), and then go and find that item (usually by trading).


This is EXACTLY what I mean. Incindentally I find the former way to acquire gear much superior in terms of enjoyment of a game than the latter. I actually do not understand how "trading until you have the gear you need" can be seen as an attractive alternative to that. What then? Trade until you get an upgrade? Trade until you have the gear for a second char? It all seems so bland and mechanical to me ...

@BlackieChan:

"
All of that is wrong? According to who? Some random like you with no argument? Lmao, cool story kid.


Except for the D3 part all of it is wrong, yes. I actually didn't think I had to explain their idiocy, but there you go.

If you don't like trading you are antisocial
Even if someone does not like to trade AND does not want to play in groups, it does not mean that he is antisocial. All you know about him/her is that in this particular game at this particular time he/she does not like to trade or play in groups. That is all.
Nevertheless you can read it every so often. Even if he/she does not even mention playing in groups, because he/she would actually like to play in groups, you can read it.
This is an assumption, serving to put him/her down and in the defensive. And the question is why.

You are too lazy
Too lazy for what exactly? Learn the prices? So why would someone willing to farm endlessly, and learn all about the game-mechanics suddenly be too lazy to learn how the market works? Does that make any sense?

You are too dumb
Same thing. If someone is able to understand the game-mechanics and what to watch out for in a build, recognizing an item that can be sold should be a piece of cake for him.

This is the irrationality and the tendency for ad-hominems and mindlessly lashing out that I mentioned in the OP. It does not make sense, it should be obvious to anyone that it does not make sense, yet these are the "arguments" you encounter all the time.

As for the two points regarding better loot, I already said something about them in the OP.

And yes, 5 weeks to get the currency for a Kaom's is a tremendous shortcut. You can easily farm for hundreds if not thousands of hours and never see one. As far as I'm concerned this is fine - at least regarding the legacy one, because it's so uber and special -, but please don't say that 5 weeks for that is not a shortcut. That's just ridiculous.

"
Also, it looks like you're a standard player, and then you wonder why you can't make currency or get the "best" items in a league with such an utterly fucked economy? Are you serious?

Simply amazing. I never once even hinted at wondering why I "can't make any currency" or wanting the best items. My OP had nothing whatsoever to do with that. It was about being irrational, and about being unable to comprehend, misreading or twisting one's words by those who defend PoE's dependency on trading. And here you are, doing exactly that.
Last edited by Jojas on Apr 23, 2014, 2:23:33 AM
I wanted to play advocatus diaboli and argue for trading with all the logic of a lawyer that defends a criminal... but i can´t.
What can never be lent or earned?
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Masticate every sword. Shatters every shrine. It defeat mighty kings and carry mountains on lightly wings.
What am i?
I think it is better to have trading than not. Then you can have different play styles. You don't have to farm the hardest mobs, instead you can get the lesser drops and trade for better stuff. In no game I have played I have ver been lucky to get uber drops, even if drop rates have been better than in PoE.

It is better to get worse loot but at least loot that is not completly useless (i.e you can turn it into currency or trade for something better). Pretty boring to get something good/decent and it is something you can not use becuase you have no interest in playing a character that can use that item.

The bad thing with having trading in a game is RMT. But that is unavoidable. Even if there were no way to trade stuff then people would sell/buy accounts instead.

Hey, I'll be that person to argue for trading. I've played some Arpgs (some with and some without trading). Diablo 1-3, Titan Quest, Sacred, etc.

I feel that self-found definitely has its pros, for example that "Ooh, I found a cool unique, I will make a build around it"-feeling, but on the other hand it severely limits how you can play the game. Want to do an unarmed build. Well too bad, you don't have a facebreaker. I don't want to make do with what I have, I want to play the build that appeals most.

Which one you prefer is up to you really. One thing that will not work is upping drop-rates but leaving trading in the game. Reaching BiS gear too soon WILL drive people away, having to "work" for the gratification is superior. I played a moderate amount of POE (well quite excessive for me but compared to what other people play I think it's not that much, about 350 hours total) and even I got a windripper, legacy aegis, legacy BoR, can afford to spend exalts here and there and so on.

Don't have Shavronnes, though, so I keep playing to make a lowlife build. If droprates were a lot better I'd have everything so no real challenge anymore (and yeah for some people leagues can fill that role but I like the steady progression of building my stuff slowly).

Don't see how standard economy is fucked, bad gear doesn't sell (while in new leagues it does), mediocre gear is dirt cheap, very good gear is very expensive, as is to be expected.

Just my 2cts.

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