Improved Hailrake Fight in 1.1.3

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CanHasPants wrote:

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Archwizard wrote:

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Ken_NZ wrote:

Merveil, gear checks, etc.

Out of pointless curiosity, what damage type do Merveil's Favored, Chosen, and Daughters do?

In the Caverns leading up to Merveil, what damage types do the Unique Merveil's Daughters do?

How many elements are there?

What does Nessa sell? Are there screen tips to help with resist gear?

If only there were clues to help people....

To be fair, I don't think we can expect everybody nowadays to realize, "hey, I need to pay attention to what's going on here." A lot of games, I think, don't require any thought at all, no feedback from difficulty or adjusting to meet the challenge. If there's a sudden difficulty spike, it's likely the game's fault. If that is the established modern habit, as encouraged by mainstream publishers, then I do think it is fair that Path of Exile explicitly states "hey, this game is different; pay attention." It doesn't need to give any clues, just says something to force the realization upon those who aren't used to looking for such clues. It isn't about hand-holding (or whatever people like to retort) as much as it is about it not really being those gamers' faults.. there is an established norm which is completely against the grain of what PoE strives for. Those players might actually enjoy that if they realized sooner, that in Path of Exile, it is your fault if you die, and you are empowered to do something about it if you pay closer attention.

This is absolutely pathetic, and gamers like the one I quoted are the reason this trend exists. Lowest common denominator mentality in programming is just stupid. Expect and encourage elevation, say GTFO to those that don't rise to meet the challenge.

Let's stop the dumbing down of life and start the raising up of those that are living.

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Archwizard wrote:

This is absolutely pathetic, and gamers like the one I quoted are the reason this trend exists. Lowest common denominator mentality in programming is just stupid. Expect and encourage elevation, say GTFO to those that don't rise to meet the challenge.

Let's stop the dumbing down of life and start the raising up of those that are living.

The problem with this "raising up of those that are living" thing, is GGG end up overdoing it, pretty hard aswell.

Lightning Thorn is a mechanic that pretty much kills a lot of "fun" builds, heck even a map is famous for killing any fast hitting build in less than 0.2 seconds (even off-screen with Spectral Throw).
This happens even with overcapped Light Res.

Invasion league, was overdone in so many ways.
It weren't interesting at all, it was purely 1-shots off-screen, and some still are doing that.

Hailrake were fine because his entire fight gave away how to deal with him.
Merveil gives away how to deal with her.
Vaal Oversoul is a joke, all you need to do is kill adds and walk around him whilst hitting him.

Oak is the only one of the three bandits that is a challenge.

Brutus just desyncs, like a lot but can still be dealt with.

Fairgraves is such a joke, it's laughable.

Devourers release, we all remember them, Alt+F4 if you ever found one in a map.

Like these are just some examples on GGG trying to give us some interesting stuff, but they overdo it so hard that it hurts.

@All those who are mad at us for complaining:
We're just saying that GGG should focus on what should be fixed instead of what is perfectly fine.

Please fix stupid fucking desync. dont you fucking see almost nobody plays hardcore because of this?. . .. DUH!!!!!

Let's see. Wasn't Dark Souls a critically acclaimed hit because players came across events that were unpredictable and pretty much insta-deaths? This is what introduced tension into the game, and I believe it is not dissimilar to what GGG has done with Path of Exile. The real problem is trying to get through to the players who aren't able to pick up the mechanic because it isn't telegraphed in their face.

Dark Souls had a mechanic that allowed players to serve as that notification by leaving notes for other players. Perhaps a way to reduce the amount of frustration for new players would be to have an additional ring reward prior to Merveil so people can recognize the importance of elemental resistance. Upon achieving the WP for Cavern of Wrath, one of the townsfolk will grant a Sapphire ring with a little blurb/story about how there were rumours that the caverns get really cold as you descend to her lair...

In my opinion, Hailrake serves as a very loud and clear "Hey you, player! Yeah, you! This game doesn't mess around. Smarten up!". It's a shame so many players nowadays either have a sense of entitlement (game is too hard, make it easier for me!) or aren't capable of handling challenge (game is too hard, I don't want to play this game!).

I really hope GGG doesn't pander too much to this crowd, as that will surely drive away many of us early supporters... There are already other games in this genre on the market that cater to that crowd. Deviating from your original mandate will only make PoE another face in the masses. Stay niche!

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Garr0t wrote:

Let's see. Wasn't Dark Souls a critically acclaimed hit because players came across events that were unpredictable and pretty much insta-deaths? This is what introduced tension into the game, and I believe it is not dissimilar to what GGG has done with Path of Exile. The real problem is trying to get through to the players who aren't able to pick up the mechanic because it isn't telegraphed in their face.

This is a serious misconception. The Soul's series is great for a number of reasons, mainly the atmosphere of the world, the character customization with a variety of weapons, and the addictively smooth combat. It's difficulty only adds to the already existing good qualities, and enhances them. Unfortunately, it seems that Dark Souls 2 is focused more on making the game difficult just so it can be harder than the first one. I think it was a serious mis-step to market the game based on its difficulty, it sets a trend that all future games have to be as hard or harder than their predecessors.

This is a very noticable problem with PoE, every time they release something new, the power creep grows and grows, and many skills/items/talents/mechanics keep getting nerfed. The net result is that the build diversity is all but destroyed for players who don't have many of the high end build enabling uniques, that are nearly impossible to chance/find, and cost way too much for players to afford without "no-lifing" or flipping.

A game needs to be fun first and foremost. Difficulty is fine, as long as it is a skill based difficulty, and not "grind harder or trade more to pass gearcheck" or "make one of 3 OP builds (before they get nerfed) to progress" which is where PoE looks to be heading.

I'm still not sure if GGG is trying to design an ARPG or an MMO grindfest.

pretty sure Chris, may not even see this page, but here it goes any ways..

since you guys are changing up the fight experiences. Why not make them similar to like how the maps are.The way maps can have change a bit over the different difficulties. This way its more of a different encounter each time you go through the bosses.

Just a thought, I know this is a lot more then you guys are intending on doing at this point.


Also had an idea about a different league idea. it pertains to the bosses. Any chance there could be a league where the map with bosses would require a raid style encounter. Where it would require to have groups of 12 to encounter and maybe special ai to allow for larger groups to fight. I feel the scepter of god encounter, is really close to how this fight i am thinking of would be like just a bit bigger scale ofc.

I really look forward to the new fight :)

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Zelpo wrote:

GGG posted some statistics a while back, showing that most people RIP at Hailrape ... and since this game needs a constant influx of new players (& new supporters), this is why this particular boss is getting reworked.

And I agree with the common sentiment on Fairgraves: with all the love Invasion bosses have received lately, the lowly Fairgraves is in need of a revamp also.

Keep up the good work GGG! =)

Yes player retention is important but not just new players...yet they keep nerfing build after build, burying head in sand claiming desynch doesn't affect gameplay while adding more and more things that make desynch worse. Not to mention the number of players that bailed with vaal expansion because of poorly tested bosses in both ambush and invasion.
Still a great game and development team with awesome supportive community.
Just a suggestion add a soul syphon support gem for vaal skills :)

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Archwizard wrote:

This is absolutely pathetic, and gamers like the one I quoted are the reason this trend exists. Lowest common denominator mentality in programming is just stupid. Expect and encourage elevation, say GTFO to those that don't rise to meet the challenge.

Let's stop the dumbing down of life and start the raising up of those that are living.

I disagree (nevermind that the individual seems decent and reasonable, disagree with his opinion though I might); I believe this trend exists because publishers pressure (fund) developers into taking the safest route to greater profits. That means, as games reach a broader audience, lowering certain standards to meet a broader appeal. There are a lot of gamers nowadays who would not have been gamers back in ye glory days of gaming, only now for the fact that Call of Duty 16 is just so (god awful) popular.

What I am suggesting is that we don't immediately shut the door in these players' faces; there's no need to sling "gtfo"s at folk when they just don't get it. It's not their fault they haven't been exposed to a "hardcore" game, and Path of Exile has appeals beyond just being "hardcore." We do have one door (cool looking, free to play action) open to them, after all. All I'm saying is, the invitation is extended--might as well put out a door mat.

Something along the lines of a load screen tip, or message upon (new-account / until checkbox-to-disable) death, that reads "Pay attention to what killed you; everything has a counter."

Who knows, these (sorts of) players might actually like what they find, if we encourage them to give it a chance rather than (what amounts to, by appearances, established by prevailing trends) shutting them out. There is nothing unreasonable about this proposal, and it by no means indicates a move towards the lowest common denominator, as you put it. The contrary--if you read what I write, I'm quite literally suggesting that we try to help them "rise above" the lowest common denominator.

moar hailrake plzzz

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CanHasPants wrote:

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Archwizard wrote:

This is absolutely pathetic, and gamers like the one I quoted are the reason this trend exists. Lowest common denominator mentality in programming is just stupid. Expect and encourage elevation, say GTFO to those that don't rise to meet the challenge.

Let's stop the dumbing down of life and start the raising up of those that are living.

I disagree (nevermind that the individual seems decent and reasonable, disagree with his opinion though I might); I believe this trend exists because publishers pressure (fund) developers into taking the safest route to greater profits. That means, as games reach a broader audience, lowering certain standards to meet a broader appeal. There are a lot of gamers nowadays who would not have been gamers back in ye glory days of gaming, only now for the fact that Call of Duty 16 is just so (god awful) popular.

What I am suggesting is that we don't immediately shut the door in these players' faces; there's no need to sling "gtfo"s at folk when they just don't get it. It's not their fault they haven't been exposed to a "hardcore" game, and Path of Exile has appeals beyond just being "hardcore." We do have one door (cool looking, free to play action) open to them, after all. All I'm saying is, the invitation is extended--might as well put out a door mat.

Something along the lines of a load screen tip, or message upon (new-account / until checkbox-to-disable) death, that reads "Pay attention to what killed you; everything has a counter."

Who knows, these (sorts of) players might actually like what they find, if we encourage them to give it a chance rather than (what amounts to, by appearances, established by prevailing trends) shutting them out. There is nothing unreasonable about this proposal, and it by no means indicates a move towards the lowest common denominator, as you put it. The contrary--if you read what I write, I'm quite literally suggesting that we try to help them "rise above" the lowest common denominator.

Spoiler

That sounds more elitist than is meant ^_^

Okay, so I didn't want to, but you're going to make me break down his post.

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Ken_NZ wrote:

@GGG - This was my main beef with PoE and possibly part of the reason I put it down for a while. For me Hailrake wasn't the issue. It was Merveil. I was cruising along through the game - sure, I'd died a couple of times to silly mistakes, but I knew what they were, no fault of the game really - but then I hit Merveil and I was getting thrashed and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it. [1.-Ed.]It came right out of the blue, with absolutely no warning, leaving me completely unable to prepare and therefore destined to fail by the very design of the game. Why? Because I had no cold resist. In fact, I don't think the game had dropped any items with cold resist up to that point, nor had there been any offered as a reward.

Experience and subsequent reading have caused me to realise that you have introduced these 'gear-checkpoints' throughout the game. Basically if you don't have the correct elemental resistance equipped gear then you can't pass certain points (or its very, very difficult). However, this fact is completely obscured to new players. [1.-Ed.]You've got to go outside the game and research its mechanics to discover this.

Rather than changing the difficulty of certain boss fights, it'd probably be better to find ways of letting the player know what to expect in terms of elemental 'danger.' There are various ways of doing this. [2.-Ed.]If you make the enemies in the zone before a boss (as long as people know there is a boss ahead) have resistance to the elements that the boss uses - then have a character at the start warn the player to pay attention to these stats. This is probably the most subtle in some ways and then leaves it to the player, ie. no more handholding. Otherwise before players hit the boss have an NPC give them some hint (eg. "It'll be pretty frigid where Merveil's lurking. You might want to think about something to keep you warm"). Heck, for the Hailrake fight you could've offered players a cold resist amulet to help them out if you wanted to make it a bit easier without changing his skills, and at the same time you introduce them to elemental resists and their importance.

[1.-Ed]Personally I think having people die because they had no clue of what was ahead is poor design. Players should die based on lack of skill and planning, not on failing some hidden gear-checkpoint.

Okay, so the three spots I marked with a [1.] are exactly what I'm talking about. This guy is complaining about no warning, and I easily rattled off numerous warnings he had, just from memory. Never mind whatever Nessa and other NPCs tell you.

The spot I marked with a [2.] Make no sense to me at all. Everything resists cold, maybe she does cold? I don't get that at all. And Nessa explicitly tells you Merveil's ahead.

Now, you argue it's not players but companies driving the issue. Companies drive the issue BECAUSE OF PLAYERS. If players step up and reward challenging and interesting game design, companies will follow suit. If players don't, companies won't.

If someone has to be told to pay attention to what killed them, I find that horribly depressing.

I am not, in any way, advocating shutting the door in anyone's face. I want as many people as possible to enjoy this game, because I think it's worth enjoying. However, I don't want to see this game destroyed by GGG catering to people that cannot be bothered to learn or pay attention to what is going on around them. The response the poster above should have had is not "Shit, I had no warning! Man, Add warnings right now it's bad game design!", it should have been "Shit, I died. What happened on the way? Oh, I was dealing with a crapton of monsters that deal cold damage named Merveil's X and Nessa warned me Merveil is coming up, I should have gotten cold res!"

Shit happens, and you die. When I used to hang out in global chat I would tell new players all the time that PoE is comprised of: Make char, play the game, fuck it up, learn from it, make new char, play the game, fuck it up, learn from it, make new char....

This game, in general (yes, there are fuck ups in design and scaling in places [Looking At You A3X]), does a good job of foreshadowing what is coming and giving you the tools to learn from it so you can get ganked in a whole new glorious way.

The above post is a perfect example of someone that completely missed the numerous signs provided and then proceeds to ask GGG to dumb it down.