Bartering System needs some LOVE!

We need to change/improve current bartering system a bit...

Why we need this?

- trade channel is full of currency exchange request
- people do not know what to ask for, what to offer for an item
- lots of people find this system as "retarded" and game lose lots of potential players
- lots of stash space occupied
- lots of time/effort wasted to organize all these item
- trading becomes nightmare if you do not have enough currency one is asking for an item
- extra complexity which brings nothing more, except originality

Now, what I suggest is this:

- We will have a exchange NPC (XNPC) in town who will buy & sell currency.
- He will buy any currency and give you para (new currency)
- Para will be just a number on our character sheet, no space required
- When we need anything, we will go to this XNPC and buy any currency we need using our para.
- We will start trading with para (people may trade with anything)
- Para will not drop in game
- trade channel wil not be flooded with currency buy/sell messages
- players will not ask for any ratio (it will be obvious, everybody will know what a currency worths how much para)

Now, from my investigation, we can start with these values

"

Currency Suggested Price (para)
Armourer's Scrap 3.00
Blacksmith's Whetstone 3.00
Blessed Orb 6.50
Cartographer's Chisel 7.50
Chaos Orb 10.00
Chromatic Orb 2.00
Divine Orb 100.00
Eternal Orb 500.00
Exalted Orb 150.00
Gemcutter's Prism 20.00
Glassblower's Bauble 5.00
Jeweller's Orb 2.00
Mirror of Kalandra 10000.00
Orb of Alchemy 5.00
Orb of Alteration 2.00
Orb of Augmentation 2.00
Orb of Chance 3.00
Orb of Fusing 6.50
Orb of Regret 14.00
Orb of Scouring 7.00
Orb of Transmutation 3.00
Portal Scroll 1.00
Regal Orb 15.00
Scroll of Wisdom 1.00
Vaal Orb 50.00

* Mirror of Kalandra may or may not sold here...

Some other ideas

- This XNPC can apply some TAX, ie, buy a divine orb for 100, but sell for 100 * (1+0.1)=110.00 para (10% tax/commission)
- Prices may be dynamic (depending on buy/sell ratio or drop ratio. GGG knows what is the amount in game, how many dropped/used so far or during the day)
- Prices may be fixed all the time (by adjusting the drop rates based on demand)

I am really frustrated with all these hassle & flooding of trade channel with ratio questions, currency exchange requests...

we really dont need all these... a complexity/hassle which is not improving the game at all...

Suggested system will not change the game too much, easy to implement... we will focus on game, not converting currencies...

once this system in place, it will be very easy to implement an auction house (AH) where we list our items and put a starting bid, buyout price (all will be done with new currency, para), similar to what diablo had, which is closed now... with current system, AH is just a dream, but with suggested system, it can be turn into reality...

What do you think?

why GGG selected this bartering system:

Development Diary: Rethinking Gold as a Currency
http://pathofexile.wikia.com/wiki/Rethinking_gold_as_a_Currency

How it will work?

We will start with 0 para / no currency

Then as we find currency, we may convert them to para...

At any time, we will have just para (if you wish you can store currency and dont deal with this NPC at all, it is up to you)

When needed, you can buy any currency with your para. For example, you need 20 x "Blacksmith's Whetstone". Go and buy from this NPC & use it...

trading will be done with para (no obligation here, you can trade with item / any currency if you wish)

no more "what is a:b ratio", "how much is this worth?" questions in trade channels...
no more "wtb/wts a:b posts"

All players need is this http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/810636 whose prices will be higher than the actual price of currency players pay in which players would have a good idea what currency items could go for. Therefore, players will still barter with other players regarding how much they'll actually pay for a specific currency when it comes to ratios since they won't pay for currency at the NPC's price(s).

i checked the link, so basically it is the same thing...

but the one I suggest not just remove all clutter posts from trade channels, but also people will value items with new currency/para! and use para for trading... currencies will be used as is, no more storage required since everybody will convert them to para, and when needed, they will buy whatever currency from this new NPC...

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HainKurt wrote:

i checked the link, so basically it is the same thing...

but the one I suggest not just remove all clutter posts from trade channels, but also people will value items with new currency/para! and use para for trading... currencies will be used as is, no more storage required since everybody will convert them to para, and when needed, they will buy whatever currency from this new NPC...

I don't see the similarity between what you propose and what I propose. In fact, our ideas are two worlds apart in how they work. The difference with my idea vs. yours is players are not going to pay what the NPC is selling orbs for in which players can barter with other players when trading orbs with one another.

For example, if a trader wants 4 Alteration Orbs (in my idea) just for you to obtain 1 Jeweller's Orb, players are not going to buy it at that price in which they'll barter with / look to other players who will sell orbs cheaper than the NPC. In other words, players are competing against the NPC's prices, not the NPC competing against player prices.

Your idea is not like that and is the equivalent to in-game gold, that which is something GGG does not want in PoE. Your idea also falls apart and contradicts itself in which orb currency will be converted into this 'para' currency, and as a result, defeats the point in having players actually use orbs for crafting. Then again, 'para' currency can be used to buy orbs from this NPC?

It makes no sense; why convert your orbs to 'para' if you're just going to buy what you converted with para? It sounds like a catch-22 to me.

P.S. The thread I linked has now been updated.

what I was trying to do is this:

1. get rid of currency trading/converting between players
2. sell all currency when you dont need, and buy whatever you need later
3. make trades with a common/known currency

4. prices maybe fixed (this is already in game, partially)
5. this NPC can/buy without any price change (free exchange)
6. this NPC may buy cheaper & sell more
7. we can implement tax + dynamic pricing depending demand/supply

at the end, players will talk in this new currency all the time, and they will know what para worth. I am trying to simplify the trade without sacrificing anything, without big changes to the game, easy to implement...

of existing NPC's will not buy/sell/convert currencies anymore, all of them will be done by new exchange NPC

the goal is to get rid of "how much does it worth?" "whats is a:b ratio?", "wtb/wts a:b" which is flooding the trade... and make players focus on game instead of wasting their time with currencies, converting less valuable currencies into more valuable ones to be able to participate in trading... also, i know there are lots of people who find this bartering system "stupid/retarded" and keep away from the game just because of this...

it is like real life! everybody is producing something, but they sell all these products and get a common currency (para) and whenever/whatever they need, they buy that one with their money... simple as that... Proposed system does not alter game experience at all, just moves all these unnecessary cluttering into the new exchange NPC in game... thats all...

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

It makes no sense; why convert your orbs to 'para' if you're just going to buy what you converted with para? It sounds like a catch-22 to me.

Why? let me explain: when I start a game, i will play and collect lots of currencies, and my half stash is full of these currencies... instead I will convert them to para, and save lots of space... later, say I found a nice weapon and need to modify it, increase the socket, change colors, links, and improve quality... at that point, i will go to NPC, and buy currencies for this purpose... after I am done with all these, I will continue playing and find new currencies and sell them again... in trade channel, someone is selling a nice ring, asking for 120para. If I have that I can buy it, or negotiate...easy peasy...

without this para, what will happen? that user is asking for 10 chaos... I dont have but i have dozens of others... what should I do? spent hours/days to consolidate all my currencies and try to get 10 chaos? then find that user and get the item? what an inefficient way! result is same... do this in game within seconds or spend hours/days in trade spam channel...

also, lots of smart (?) people are trying to cheat noobs and grab their currencies for cheap, and then selling more...

we will get rid of all these annoyances and not waste our time but focus on game & finding gears...

"

HainKurt wrote:

"

HeavyMetalGear wrote:

It makes no sense; why convert your orbs to 'para' if you're just going to buy what you converted with para? It sounds like a catch-22 to me.

Why? let me explain: when I start a game, i will play and collect lots of currencies, and my half stash is full of these currencies... instead I will convert them to para, and save lots of space... later, say I found a nice weapon and need to modify it, increase the socket, change colors, links, and improve quality... at that point, i will go to NPC, and buy currencies for this purpose... after I am done with all these, I will continue playing and find new currencies and sell them again... in trade channel, someone is selling a nice ring, asking for 120para. If I have that I can buy it, or negotiate...easy peasy...

without this para, what will happen? that user is asking for 10 chaos... I dont have but i have dozens of others... what should I do? spent hours/days to consolidate all my currencies and try to get 10 chaos? then find that user and get the item? what an inefficient way! result is same... do this in game within seconds or spend hours/days in trade spam channel...

also, lots of smart (?) people are trying to cheat noobs and grab their currencies for cheap, and then selling more...

we will get rid of all these annoyances and not waste our time but focus on game & finding gears...

Sigh... You're still not getting it. I'm looking at the bigger picture outside the big picture here, and if I may, let me explain what I mean in better detail.

Between my idea(s) with Currency Price Checking System (UI) Tab to Improve Trading

and

Public Trade Boxes within dedicated Trade Tab, ETC. (no AH suggested)

There will be no spam, and if so, a very negligible amount for the following reasons, including reason(s) why my ideas on this topic is better:

1. My idea of a price check system vs. your entire 'Para' System will give players a base price on what orb currency goes for, yet at a higher price from the NPC. Therefore, if the NPC's prices are higher, that then improves the current 'bartering system' between players when trading orb currency.

You see, there is nothing wrong with a good bartering system. The problem is with the horrible bartering trade system we have now, which is why it's getting a bad rep.

Guild Wars 1 (if I may make the comparison, again,) is a good example of a great bartering system in which if the Crafting Materials NPC in that game is selling 'Ectoplasm' --- the high-end currency in Guild Wars 1 --- for 8,000 Gold, players in trade will negotiate with other players to pay 500 to 1,000 less gold for that particular currency costs at the NPC.

Your idea on the other hand almost does away with the bartering system entirely. When I trade, I want to interact with real players, not the computer via an NPC in which I may be able to get something cheaper by chance when trading real players.

We already interact with the NPC enough when turning our Alteration Orbs into Jeweller Orbs, which we then convert into Chaos by trading other players, and is hardly an annoyance. Speaking of so-called said annoyances, trading is part of the game, and not even your ideas will get rid of it as much you may like it to go away entirely. I say that because you seem to support more interaction between the computer via an NPC than players, which is something I support only to an extent.

It also doesn't take 10 hours (as you exaggerate) to convert Alteration Orbs, a stack of Chromatic Orbs, or Jeweller's Orbs into Chaos or whatever you want. Furthermore, when you're done with your conversion for Chaos Orbs, you'll have more space, which is almost the equivalent to converting into Para like in your idea, just not as instant.

2. Due to what was stated in #1, players will not really have much, if any, room to cheat other players since the NPC is going to act as a solid price checker selling orb currency higher than actual players.

It only makes sense... If the NPC in my idea is going to be selling players orb currency at a higher rate than real players do, it would be quite foolish to cheat another player by attempting to ask other players for ridiculous orb ratios, etc. WHEN other players (including you) are going to try to beat the NPC's higher price.

That being said, will some players still try to cheat uninformed players with the new system in place like in my idea? Absolutely! but it won't last long the more informed players become about the new system.

3. While your 'Para' System may save stash space, hoarding your currency is quite silly, especially to the extent you do in which you seem to be saying you easily fill a Stash Tab full of currency, which is (to me) ridiculous.

You should be selling stacks of currency as they come on the go, or using them to craft for your gear as you progress through the game. If you do that, your stash space will balance itself out over time.

IF you're not doing the above stated as you progress through the game, you're either 1. a horrible trader asking too much for your items 2. a hoarder who cannot help hoarding currency for the sake of keeping it for no particular use, or 3. you're not crafting your gear as often you should, which is the whole point in collecting most currency in the first place other than trading it.

4. My idea for a Public Trade Box System where players can drag-and-drop their gear to their trade boxes will greatly mitigate chat spam. Other players viewing your gear can easily view it in a Public Trade Tab where everyone's Trade Box is displayed, and they will also be able to CTRL + CLICK items they like in whispers to the owner of the Trade Box.

In addition to the above stated, players will also not have to feel the need to spam the Public Party Tab with trade-related messages when they have a Public Trade Tab (and Trade Box) available to post what they have to sell or want to buy.

Players who want to buy items with this Public Trade Box System will just have a message line, while players wanting to sell items will have a message line + items in their Trade Box for other players to look through.

5. Your biggest problem is with players cheating other players when it comes to orb currency, but tell me, what say you about gear itself? Come on... Is your next proposal to GGG going to be something along the lines where players will convert their currency into 'Para' that can be used to buy rares, uniques, etc. from the NPC to remedy players cheating other players?

That sounds silly, doesn't it? That's because it is, as is your 'Para' System. While I get it, it doesn't really solve the problem(s) you're wanting to fix regarding players cheating one another.

That's going to be like that no matter what you game play, that is, unless you do away with player interaction entirely. By then, you may as well be playing a Single Player game, not Multiplayer.

So until you can come up with something better, I'm not convinced your idea is better and is in the best interest of GGG for reasons already stated in this reply, and in previous replies I've composed.

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1. My idea of a price check system vs. your entire 'Para' System will give players a base price on what orb currency goes for, yet at a higher price from the NPC. Therefore, if the NPC's prices are higher, that then improves the current 'bartering system' between players when trading orb currency.

I said, price may be fixed (buy price=sell price, or there may be a tax, sell for 110 but buy for 100), or even it may depend on currencies on the market at any time, or it may depend on usage...

"

Your idea on the other hand almost does away with the bartering system entirely. When I trade, I want to interact with real players, not the computer via an NPC in which I may be able to get something cheaper by chance when trading real players.

Not really... It just eliminates bartering currency exchange... or bartering item with tons of currencies... bartering will be based on item vs para or item vs item (+ pare or some other things). And when I play the game, I dont want to waste my time to consolidate 20 different currencies into some usable one (chaos or ex) to be able to trade with others... when I say "i have 3x, 5y, 12z, 24w, 3t, 5p, 7m... but dont have 36c or 2ex you want", they just dont bother... and i cannot get anything...

"

It also doesn't take 10 hours (as you exaggerate) to convert Alteration Orbs, a stack of Chromatic Orbs, or Jeweller's Orbs into Chaos or whatever you want. Furthermore, when you're done with your conversion for Chaos Orbs, you'll have more space, which is almost the equivalent to converting into Para like in your idea, just not as instant.

I just see this process stupid and waste of time :) maybe it was ok before money is invented, but even in those days, I am sure there were markets that buy/sell same things... like meat market, egg market, fish market, vegy market etc... What I suggest is get rid of this unnecessary process... and give players one currency (para) which is understood by everbody...

right now trade is full of "wts/wtb xa:yb", "what is ratio for a:b", "PC: item link here" > "answer for this is just funny :1c, nothing, vendor, 2ex, anything...

it is not noob friendly, and lots of people are just keep away from POE because of this "retarded/stupid bartering" system... This system is not giving players anything... just a tool to waste time...

"

2. Due to what was stated in #1, players will not really have much, if any, room to cheat other players since the NPC is going to act as a solid price checker selling orb currency higher than actual players.

why do we need to trade currencies? the XNPC (exchange NPC) will be main source of consolidating/buying/selling process... and people will not trade currencies since XNPC will be cheapest (unless some dumb people sell under that price = no reason for that, like giveaway)

"

That being said, will some players still try to cheat uninformed players with the new system in place like in my idea? Absolutely! but it won't last long the more informed players become about the new system.

unlikely... when players start a game, they will see there is XNPC in town that buys/sell currencies... no cheating...

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3. While your 'Para' System may save stash space, hoarding your currency is quite silly, especially to the extent you do in which you seem to be saying you easily fill a Stash Tab full of currency, which is (to me) ridiculous.

i use them, when i need... but most of the time i dont need... they occupy 1/3 of my one stash tab... space is really a small issue, a visual clutter imo... i have 10 tabs, and 1/30 of all space is dedicated to these currencies... arranging them, converting them, keep them tidy is waste of time imo...

for example when i do a run, i collect some currencies... if I have a button @ XNPC : "sell all currencies" I am done with one click...

"

4. My idea for a Public Trade Box System where players can drag-and-drop their gear will also greatly mitigate chat spam. Other players viewing your gear can easily view it in a Public Trade Tab where everyone's Trade Box is displayed containing items.

if some one is asking for xc (x is number, c is any currency) for that item and if I dont have that xc, then I need to go to trade channel and try to convert my other currencies into this xc... in that small trading chat screen, where posts are flowing 10 in a second, good luck... I just keep it closed since it is very annoying to me... so, if i dont have that xc, trade or bartering = fail...

but, instead if someone saying "WTS X for xP, PM" and if I have that xP (P=para) then i can get it immediately = success...

at the end, what I suggest is, just a shortcut to the final goal, eliminating all unnecessary things in the middle, which some people may like, but lots of people just hate it, and for this reason, they dont install the game...

"

5. Your biggest problem is with players cheating other players when it comes to orb currency, but tell me, what say you about gear itself? Come on... Is your next proposal to GGG going to be something along the lines where players will convert their currency into 'Para' that can be used to buy rares, uniques, etc. from the NPC to remedy players cheating other players?

I guess you still missing the point here...

basically, what I suggest does not change game at all, it will eliminate unnecessary complexity for trading...

having "xA, yB, zC, wD, tE,...." is same as some para... they are equal, at any time, para may buy currency, currency may be sold for para... para will be used for trading... simple as that... game is grinding gears, not grinding gears and consolidating gears by bartering, or it should not be... this system is limiting player base a lot...

also, the system i suggest opens doors to any kind of auction house, where anybody list items and search & buy other items found by other players (GGG may get some cut as well)...

with bartering system, good luck for such an auction system...

in this game, there are some people, who dont play, but buy & sell currencies... buy cheap (cheat noobs) and sells expensive (to people who need)...

what I suggest is, get rid of these middleman and give that job to XNPC!

everybody will win, except those guys, but who cares about them, they are just polluting channel & fooling people... or collecting currencies to sell them on their web site...

with suggested system, players will trade items for items, or items for para (which means any currency they need)...

think of this: I played 100s of hours and not have currency to do something, then I found 1 ex or better currency... now I need to break it into 6-7 small currency to be able to use it... what a waste of time to do this? i cannot imagine it...

with suggested system, I will sell that high end currency to XNPC and buy all those 6-7 currencies I need, without time waste or being fooled/cheated by middlemen trying to suck your blood...

easy peasy...