The Issue of "Legacy" and League-Exclusive Items

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reboticon wrote:

You believers who think PvP will ever be anything but an unbalanced mess in this game make me smile.

It really disappoints me when people say that PvP will always be a joke that's only useful for testing or that Standard league is meant to be a "dumpster league" that no one takes seriously. If this were true then GGG would just remove these features from the game. The current state of PvP and Standard leagues may be rough but that doesn't mean that we should just accept it and ignore that aspect of the game. That sort of attitude isn't constructive and only hurts the progress of the game.

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reboticon wrote:

Legacy items that dropped in challenge leagues make perfect sense, though. You can play the challenge league and get them.

Tell that to the people who started playing the game after those leagues have ended.

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Real_Wolf wrote:

You might as well say your issue with buying a car is that you can't have that ferrari daytona because they don't make it anymore, which isn't fair.

Don't like the anology. Big difference between real life and a video game, but if your going to use that metaphor then it would be like taking the same car, ripping out features and selling it for the same price.

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But for legacy items? They still exist. They are just more balanced. The idea is that they aren't useless either. You can still use BoR just fine. Sure its not as powerful as before, but who cares?

Basically everyone, which is because GGG refuses to simply fix all of them.

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The complaint that "I can't have this legacy item" is "Daddy I want the shiny thing", there is NO justifiable reason for saying there is a problem because the item is now exclusive when there is no competition

Don't agree with this. And I have what I want and can get anything I want in the future, so there is none of this hypothetical "jealousy"

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florian wrote:

It really disappoints me when people say that PvP will always be a joke that's only useful for testing or that Standard league is meant to be a "dumpster league" that no one takes seriously. If this were true then GGG would just remove these features from the game. The current state of PvP and Standard leagues may be rough but that doesn't mean that we should just accept it and ignore that aspect of the game. That sort of attitude isn't constructive and only hurts the progress of the game.

You should just accept it. Devs have made their opinions on standard very clear numerous times. They are not going for a balanced economy there. You just need to accept it, just as I have to learn to accept the ludicrous amount of RNG in the game. It is by design. In regards to PvP - very, very few people care about PvP, and there is no way to actually balance it without really screwing with PvE. In the same way races will never truly be balanced because of RNG.

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florian wrote:

Tell that to the people who started playing the game after those leagues have ended.

Those people are put in 4 MONTH leagues by default for a reason. They can acquire those items as they are made available again through race rewards or they can buy them at a premium.

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reboticon wrote:

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florian wrote:

It really disappoints me when people say that PvP will always be a joke that's only useful for testing or that Standard league is meant to be a "dumpster league" that no one takes seriously. If this were true then GGG would just remove these features from the game. The current state of PvP and Standard leagues may be rough but that doesn't mean that we should just accept it and ignore that aspect of the game. That sort of attitude isn't constructive and only hurts the progress of the game.

You should just accept it. Devs have made their opinions on standard very clear numerous times. They are not going for a balanced economy there. You just need to accept it, just as I have to learn to accept the ludicrous amount of RNG in the game. It is by design. In regards to PvP - very, very few people care about PvP, and there is no way to actually balance it without really screwing with PvE. In the same way races will never truly be balanced because of RNG.

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florian wrote:

Tell that to the people who started playing the game after those leagues have ended.

Those people are put in 4 MONTH leagues by default for a reason. They can acquire those items as they are made available again through race rewards or they can buy them at a premium.

They will never accept it no matter how hard you try to convince it :P

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reboticon wrote:

You should just accept it. Devs have made their opinions on standard very clear numerous times. They are not going for a balanced economy there. You just need to accept it, just as I have to learn to accept the ludicrous amount of RNG in the game. It is by design. In regards to PvP - very, very few people care about PvP, and there is no way to actually balance it without really screwing with PvE. In the same way races will never truly be balanced because of RNG.

Again, I don't think it's GGG's intention to keep a "dumpster league" around. RNG has nothing in common with this issue. RNG is an intended aspect of the game while legacy items in Standard are an unintended result of poor planning.

Also, there's a massive demand for PvP. Many people were originally attracted to this game by the prospect of PvP. I understand not wanting to change PvE for PvP but PvP was promised from the beginning, so it is just as much a part of this game and deserves attention.

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reboticon wrote:

Those people are put in 4 MONTH leagues by default for a reason. They can acquire those items as they are made available again through race rewards or they can buy them at a premium.

Again, how is this fair for new players? Why should players receive a permanent advantage just because they've been playing longer? GGG has always supported a fair playing field (which is why microtransactions don't give gameplay benefits). This process of letting veteran players keep overpowered items should not be ignored.

With the recent update on PvP development I wanted to mention a few things.

Since cut-throat will eventually be implemented as a new league, legacy items won't exist in it until they are created. If they are created in the league the problem won't appear to be as bad since anyone who uses a legacy item also risks losing that item. The unfairness to new players still exists but the problem isn't as glaring.

However, with the introduction of cut-throat mode PvP will start to become more balanced and more popular and not everyone will want to play with the risks of cut-throat mode. These people will want to PvP in Standard leagues, which may or may not have introduced more PvP features, where the "legacy" problem will become much more evident.

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reboticon wrote:

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florian wrote:

It really disappoints me when people say that PvP will always be a joke that's only useful for testing or that Standard league is meant to be a "dumpster league" that no one takes seriously. If this were true then GGG would just remove these features from the game. The current state of PvP and Standard leagues may be rough but that doesn't mean that we should just accept it and ignore that aspect of the game. That sort of attitude isn't constructive and only hurts the progress of the game.

You should just accept it. Devs have made their opinions on standard very clear numerous times. They are not going for a balanced economy there. You just need to accept it, just as I have to learn to accept the ludicrous amount of RNG in the game. It is by design. In regards to PvP - very, very few people care about PvP, and there is no way to actually balance it without really screwing with PvE. In the same way races will never truly be balanced because of RNG.

I know this post is a week old or so, but I don't think we should simply accept the developer's opinion as absolute.

I mean... I don't think they wanted permanent allocation as an option in parties, but they still did it for all the players who wanted it.

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florian wrote:

Again, I don't think it's GGG's intention to keep a "dumpster league" around.

It IS GGG's intention.

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florian wrote:

RNG has nothing in common with this issue. RNG is an intended aspect of the game while legacy items in Standard are an unintended result of poor planning.

Legacy items are completely INTENDED. GGG specifically stated this. It was intented to make tons of legacy items by removing IIQ, too.

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florian wrote:

Also, there's a massive demand for PvP. Many people were originally attracted to this game by the prospect of PvP. I understand not wanting to change PvE for PvP but PvP was promised from the beginning, so it is just as much a part of this game and deserves attention.

If you are so concerned by PvP, why had you chosen ARPG? There a tons of PvP-specific games, where PvP is much more enjoying and much better balanced. It's very hard to keep both good PvP and PvE in any game - World of Warcraft is a clear example. So, i dont expect much from PvP in ARPG, and you shouldnt either.

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florian wrote:

Again, how is this fair for new players? Why should players receive a permanent advantage just because they've been playing longer? GGG has always supported a fair playing field (which is why microtransactions don't give gameplay benefits). This process of letting veteran players keep overpowered items should not be ignored.

It ISNT fair for new players. But GGG doesnt care at all about those. They think, that new players should come to new league, play 2-4 months and give game up. Or try to compete with players, who "was there" and managed to obtain good items for cheap before they became legacy. Even if new player will match his time played to a "legacy player", he still will have far worse equipment and wealth.