2h still sucks

"

iamstryker wrote:

they could also put block on two handers or add block nodes to the tree for 2 handers (aside from the staff ones currently on there.)

Yeah, sure, add block to everything, good for diversity.

You can already have...
a ton of Endurance Charges
a ton of Life/regen
permanent Immortal Call
Acrobatics
Lightning Coil

...if you really want, you can have all of this in one build.

The only, literally the only thing you don't have is block. And that kills it? You serious?

"

Peterlerock wrote:

Yeah, sure, add block to everything, good for diversity.

Your the one who said it was "almost impossible". I gave you one suggestion and you belittle it. Ya block is overused in the game, Its probably the best and most used defense in the game so my suggestion was just being consistent with the game. If you have a better one then go ahead and share. What you have listed in the quote below can't really be added to weapons which is why I suggested block.

"

You can already have...
a ton of Endurance Charges
a ton of Life/regen
permanent Immortal Call
Acrobatics
Lightning Coil


...if you really want, you can have all of this in one build.

The only, literally the only thing you don't have is block. And that kills it? You serious?

Your arguing something that I never said in the first place. The whole discussion here is how to improve melee and two handed melee to have some kind of edge over ranged. Your argumentation above suggests that you think that I think melee isn't viable. Yes I know it can work with all of that, but I don't agree that makes melee fine compared to ranged. Myself and most players I have seen talking about the issue recognize that melee just isn't good enough compared to ranged. You have to nagivate from mob to mob instead of spamming AOE death all over the screen and you have to be right up close to the mobs in a dangerous position. You can spend alot of effort getting all of those mitigations you have listed above and then you still end up with a somewhat tanky build that clears slowly compared to ranged and doesn't have any significant damage gains over ranged so what really is the point of using one? Basically all of those defenses your using to stay alive you could also use as ranged so you end up wondering why your spending your time on melee at all when you could be clearing faster and safer as ranged.

Again, I'm only trying to make suggestions to make melee better. I am not and will not argue that melee isn't viable. That is not the point.

Edit: Just to add in my personal experience with this issue. I currently have an arc witch and a two handed staff meleer that I spent an equal amount of effort putting together. My arc witch is hands down far and away better. I'm continually looking for some kind of an advantage in my melee over my witch but there just isn't any. She is safer and clears faster than he does and unless GGG does something I don't think there is anything I can do to change that.

Not sure if i posted this already in this thread, so here goes.


Suggestion 1

key-node :

The aegis of time

->20% more armor
-> 10% more life
-> projectiles no longer deal damage
-> spells no longer deal damage
(both can still "hit" to offset curses or lgoh etc"

Behind this a tri-fecta of nodes all linked to this key-stone but not to one another.

The phoenix helmet

-> 300 flat armor
-> 20% increased armor
-> fire damage is mitigated by 20% of armor

The drowned body armor

-> dito
-> dito
-> cold *dito*

The grounded boots

Same but lightning.

Now armor has a purpose for mitigating spell damage, and because it is armor it excludes a lot of builds from abusing this defense. The numbers are just random obviously.

Suggestion 2

two new clusters, between marauder and templar and between marauder and duelist. Clusters that are melee based and give a hefty keystone at the end of them. These should be located at the edge of the passive tree (similar to the ice/fire/cold circles but with only one way to the end) They should be a minimum of eight nodes in length to ensure they are not abused by non-melee utilizers.

This means they are balanced by

1) location in the tree
2) travel cost to the last node before getting major ehp buffs

These nodes could include, % more hp, +max resistance, % mitigation on kill. GGG can work this stuff out i am sure.

The main important thing to keep in mind with changes like this is that it is not "cost efficient" for a non melee class to opt for them.

Draw-backs could include zero ES, no projectile/spell damage etc.

Peace,

-Boem-

(also block on 2-handers doesn't sound great to me. 2-handers are far better helped with % based reductions then luck% based ones.)

edit : typo.

firm 'NAY' for keystone-solution

2h have a system-wide problem and cannot be fixed by forcing 2h players into a fixed tree. while these solutions seem allright i consider them to be more harmful (when implemented) than current solution

a) tree diversity (Already gimped by life clusters) would be ever more of a joke
b) armor is a bad spot and the same applies - this is a system wide problem, not to be solved by entering a 'must have' node (and admiting that all other armor nodes are crap)


fixing 2h must follow two paths:

1) making 2h melee RELATIVELY as safe/powerful as ranged builds. if buffing 2h proves to be too difficult then ranged should go down - cutting lgoh/leech on ranged attacks to 25% would do the trick. harsh? yep. enough? imho - not. but at least it is something. game should be challenging. 2h melee is challenging (and impossible for some builds/combos) but ranged IS NOT challenging as the stats are the same but incoming damage is cut by 95% if not more

2) block must go down. there must be some cost to block (stun might be good enough). removing 30% attack damage FOR FREE and 40-50% with just few nodes is just too powerful to pass

another issue is general weapon design that currently sucks horribly

attack speed. the key. 2h < 1h. this means auras and flat ele are less effective so it means that ele 2h builds are by design weak (viable with very good gear but still)

second is crit. this pos dagger can do end game content (slowly but can do it)

similar rolls for 2h - and these are vendor trash..

and i wanted to make old school 2h cleaver but this axe despite having T2 ele rolls (i think) is complete garbage..

i think it is funny that you say that daggar would do map content slowly , is the community so spoiled with broken dps builds these days that yester years idea of fast has become painfully slow?

im self found player (with the exception of uniques that i buy for hoarded orbs) so this dagger is one of my better ones

yet im perfectly aware that Elron crafter daggers are much better

what i wanted to show is - you need 4 mediocre rolls on a dagger to make it very good. similar tier of rolls on a 2h - vendor

"

sidtherat wrote:

firm 'NAY' for keystone-solution

2h have a system-wide problem and cannot be fixed by forcing 2h players into a fixed tree. while these solutions seem allright i consider them to be more harmful (when implemented) than current solution

a) tree diversity (Already gimped by life clusters) would be ever more of a joke
b) armor is a bad spot and the same applies - this is a system wide problem, not to be solved by entering a 'must have' node (and admiting that all other armor nodes are crap)

Tree diversity is already an illusion as is. Adding a few keystones/nodes wont change that fact.

The only people that have an FFA passive tree are the people purposefully gimping themselves and enjoying funny designs/builds.

All the rest are already using a blue-print tree lay-out for builds. The diversity in the tree between two ground slam marauders can be deduced to roughly 6/8 nodes being different for example.

Another thing to note is that this is done by "choice".

For example if my suggestion where to be implemented it becomes mandatory in the same sense RT becomes mandatory. Some people will use it, other's will not by own choice.

Honestly, the argument of a FFA passive tree has long passed.(from a min-max point of view obviously)

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : not saying i enjoy this/think it's a good thing. But it is hard to dismiss these fact's when browsing builds.

Besides his crusade against block, daggers, and ranged attacks, I agree with Sid regarding a keystone solution. It would be absolutely detrimental in the long run; a proper solution must be as systemic as the problem.

Though, I do like the idea of a mechanic that allows a portion of armour value to mitigate elemental damage, but the "drawbacks" you provided are not drawbacks at all. They're like saying "Resolute Technique: Your attacks cannot miss; your spells cannot crit." It doesn't matter, because spell builds are not going RT, and RT attack builds are not nuking with spells.

I'd be more fond of altering Endurance Charges to read "4% of Armour value applied against elemental damage" per charge, instead of having increased resistances per charge. This would not force any build down any path, as a keystone solution would; any 2H build is already making use of endurance charges in some fashion.

^And it would result in every 2-hand build to travel the endurance charge path and force them to take the oak reward in merciless. Again, no difference between my suggestion and your's.

People could "opt" not to do this, but like i said, they would be gimping there build in the process by choice.

Just saying, what you two are fearing has already become a reality. Every build imaginable already utilizes a min-maxed blue-print with only a handfull of extra point put into "unique fluff".

Do i get +20% as or do i get +10% physical and 6%as, that's basically what build diversity stands for in the current game.

Peace,

-Boem-

while i agree that there is ONE perfect (it is math after all) tree layout per 'build' (as in skill and way of use) i do not agree that a) adding yet another mandatory path type is a good solution to that b) i do not consider there being so little of a choice

current game has margins. you do not need to do 100% of max dps. you can do just fine with 40%. that margin allows for fun stuff (this is A GAME after all). thats why people hold back and instead of picking 'perfect' nodes they pick stuff like movement speed or dmg gained as mana. and they are still doing just fine. it is not ONLY a game for min maxers after all and it can be played as such without any problems till the latest of endgames

currently 2h melee builds (i ignore pseudo-problems like staff casters..) have thinest of margins. they need perfect life, perfect defences and at least bearable damage. this stretches builds to the limits. any keystone like one mentioned would be MANDATORY. thus making ALL 2h builds look pretty much the same. entire class of builds trivialized to one skeleton. summoners are in pretty much this spot and this is a bad one the be in - boring

btw RT is just a bad of a keystone. it would have been good with 25% crit and 200% crit multi but compared to current crit-bonanza it is just pretty much niche

btw2 what defines builds is life nodes layout. cutting their count solidified fixed tree layouts..