The Ultimate End-Game Solution? A Fresh Take on the Endless Dungeon Idea

Update

Wow, I'm blown away with the response this idea has had, here on this thread and on the Reddit thread.

Chris even replied on the Reddit thread, and here's what he said:

"
We tried something like this (the original Maelstrom of Chaos) and it had substantial problems. The Map system was designed to solve these problems and I believe it succeeded at doing so. I would like to go into more detail but am under time pressure. Community members who were around in early Closed Beta can hopefully explain more about how the Maelstrom used to work and its problems.

I do agree that our end-game can be improved substantially. It's just that levels that escalate in difficulty like this may not be the best final solution.


It's great to know that Chris and the devs are reading these ideas, and acknowledging that there's a lot of room for improvement in the endgame. Though it sounded like Chris isn't too happy with the endless dungeon idea, maybe we can hope for some other kind of endgame mode that is competitive, PvE, and uses our high-level characters.


Summary of good ideas, and an updated endless dungeon system

The point of this update is to summarise the key concerns and improvements that have been raised. I'll then use these points to provide an updated overview of how I think the mode should work.

Concern 1: the endless dungeon should be integrated with the map system (including the ranking system)

  • I fully agree with this. I'll expand on it below.


Concern 2: the endless dungeon shouldn't remove the need to run normal maps.

  • Again, I fully agree. There has been quite the debate on the Reddit thread about what sorts of rewards the endless dungeon should include. Should there be xp? Loot? Both? Neither? I think the most persuasive points raised is: the endless dungeon should reward XP (we need a good incentive to play), but the loot should be restricted in some way. The best idea is that monsters don't drop loot, but each level has a special chest, with a random item of some kind. Normal maps will still be primary way to farm loot.


Concern 3: An endless dungeon that starts at map level 66 each time would be boring!

  • This is addressed in the new system, below.


Concern 4: The Hardcore problem revisited

  • A number of people felt that my solutions to the hardcore problem were not satisfactory. I feel that the updated system (below) will be more satisfactory in this regard.


Concern 5: An endless dungeon with random affixes on each level would be too random to be competitive

  • Again, this is addressed below.


The new system

Thanks to all the great ideas (special mention to Redditor bobskizzle!) I've compiled the ideas into a new system to address all of the key concerns. Here's how it looks:

  • You initiate the dungeon by modifying a map (any non-unique map, of any level) so that it becomes the initiating map. E.g. you use a vendor recipe, or you put the map into the map device along with a special key you find. Then you simply activate the endless dungeon using the map device. (Note: you don't play this map endlessly. It's just the first in a series.)
  • This addresses concern 3: you can start the dungeon at any level, not just 66.
  • The endless dungeon looks like a normal map, but monsters don't drop loot. There's a unique boss, like normal, but after the fight, there's another Map Device at the end. You can then activate another map, of any level. But each consecutive map you play will add +1 to the monster level. So even if you activate a low level map, the monster level will keep growing. After 5 levels, the monster level will be +5 on top of whatever map you activate. This means that eventually, you won't be able to progress. This is important for the competitive aspect: you can't literally play endlessly.
  • This addresses concern 5: each level doesn't have random affixes. You choose what map to play, but the monster level increases by 1 each time.
  • Also please note, this won't be some imba way of farming high level zones with only using 60-something maps. Monsters don't drop loot.
  • When you leave the dungeon, or are defeated, you can see your rank on the Notice Board, which is some formula including XP gained / maps completed / time taken. You can see the score of your individual run, and an overall ladder with your place on it. Ideally, solo and group scores and ranks would be separated.
  • There's no requirement to full clear each level. You just need to beat the boss to be able to activate the next map. But, your score and rank is partly determined by your experience gained, so there would be literally no incentive to rush through.
  • The hardcore problem: again, my solution is: this is a really risky challenge. You can leave any time, and you have control over the map affixes, but if you keep progressing without leaving, you will inevitably die. BUT, there's no reason to play this mode unless you want to push yourself in a competitive environment. If you don't play this mode, or you just play a few maps and then leave, you're not missing out on any core PvE experience. So, if you attempt this in HC, this is the ultimate hardcore competitive challenge, for only the bravest hardcore players, and it's purely OPTIONAL.




Here's my original post:

"
Vultighjime wrote:
tldr

Read the bold text. Short summary: many people on the forums seem to share the feeling that the map system – while great for farming – isn't satisfying enough for high-level endgame over an extended period. An endless dungeon with a comprehensive ranking system would give us the sense of purpose that we need to truly revel in the high-level parts of the game.

Preface

There are threads out there with similar ideas to what I’m proposing, but none of them relate so much to my concern, which is with the end-game replayability for high-level characters.

Introduction

I would like to share my thoughts on how PoE could have a better end-game, since many people seem dissatisfied with it.

PoE has great replayability, with excellent character creation options, ladder resets and races. These options are perfect for those who like to roll new characters, experiment with new builds, compete with other players in a balanced race environment, etc.

But the replayability drops off a bit when it comes to focusing on playing one character at high levels. Don’t get me wrong, the map system is really clever and puts PoE end-game a step above the competition, but it’s clear that many people feel that mapping just isn’t engaging enough over a long period with one character. And many people, myself included, want more of a reason to keep working on one character.

Proposal

My suggestion is to implement a system that shares similarities with maps and races, but is a distinct system: a ranked endless dungeon that climbs in difficulty with each level.

I know this is not an entirely novel idea, but this is where my ideas might diverge from others:

  • It’s not an event that takes place in a separate league. You enter the dungeon on your high-level character, not on a fresh character. That means you’re finding loot and earning xp on your character as you play.
  • The endless dungeon isn’t just a quest or a one-off unique map. It’s a game mode with a comprehensive ranking system. For example, there should be separate ladders for solo, premade group and public games.
  • The endless dungeon doesn’t end at a certain floor. It’s theoretically infinite. However, the difficulty ramps up fairly quickly with each floor, so that it’s impossible for even the best players and teams to keep making progress indefinitely. The average player or group might be able to handle an hour or a few hours before dying, depending on how it’s tuned.
  • In terms of the dungeon design, it could be thought of as a sequence of zones similar to maps. Each time you progress to the next floor, the map changes, so the environment and monsters change each time.
  • Characters or parties could enter the dungeon by talking to an NPC. When the run is over, the rank could be displayed on a notice-board in game. The ranking system and the rank or “score” that you earned each run is an important aspect in making this mode addictive and replayable. In this mode, you won't just finish a bunch of maps and wonder if you achieved anything. You can get a real sense of accomplishment, and have something to strive for.


  • The result is a game mode that lets you play your preferred high level character (including finding loot and earning xp), but without the feeling that you’re not really aiming for anything. In this mode, not only can you have fun with friends or random players, but you can also strive to improve your gaming skills and your character. It would also encourage rerolling: you could theorycraft to no end to try to make the build that could go the furthest. It would also be great to watch highly skilled individuals or groups on stream, since they could be reaching levels of difficulty that have never been seen before.


    Problems / objections 1: The HC problem

    The biggest difficulty with this system is how it should be implemented in HC. Clearly, if you keep descending deeper into the dungeon, you will eventually die.

    Solutions

    • First solution: HC players don’t die, but are “knocked out” when reaching 0 hp, and are booted from the dungeon. If this is how it works, HC players won’t earn xp or loot from the run, since otherwise it would be a risk-free, game-breaking mode. It would be played as a fun and competitive mode, an attempt to break records.
    • Second solution: The markedly more hardcore option is that HC players can die. This means that each time a HC player or group reaches the next level, they must take stock of the situation and determine whether they will continue or not. (They could leave via a waypoint, or TP, etc.) I much prefer this option, since it is potentially the riskiest challenge that a HC player could face.


    Problems / objections 2: The Redundancy Objection

    We have maps, races, ladder resets... There's even descent, which is pretty much a ranked hour-long dungeon.

    Response

    The main reason a ranked endless dungeon is still necessary, even with all these other modes (which are great, btw), is because you can't play descent with your high level char. It's a form of "end-game" in a way, but racing isn't always for everyone.

    I think maps should still be a big part of PoE. They should still be the best place to farm. But we need a higher purpose with the characters we've spent a long time making, a competitive PvE challenge.

    Problems / objections 3: The Cost-Benefit Objection

    The devs should focus on creating new content instead of making this.

    Response

    I can't speak for the devs, but I think a ranked endless dungeon wouldn't be too hard to implement, since it's basically a variation of the map system. So, it seems that it would be a huge benefit for not much cost.


    Other ideas that don’t matter as much, but are fun to think about

    • There are lots of different ways to make the mode more interesting, such as difficult bosses every few levels, increasing IIQ/IIR each level, random affixes (like maps) each level, random shrines, random enemy exiles, etc.
    • A note on the increasing difficulty: the monster level could increase by 1 every few floors, but there could also be monster stats such as attack speed and movement speed that increase by 5% every floor. This way, the monsters don’t just have higher numbers (i.e. more damage and HP), but look and behave increasingly terrifying.



    Closing remarks

    I really think this kind of mode would make PoE much more replayable for high-level characters. I'm sure a lot of people would love to form a team and keep on trying to improve their rank.

    Since I'm serious about getting this mode into PoE, please leave feedback on whether you would want this, or how it could be improved. Thanks! :)
  • Hideout of the Week S01E04 thread: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1088847
    Last edited by Vultighjime on Dec 3, 2013, 8:19:41 PM
    This thread has been automatically archived. Replies are disabled.
    I like the idea a lot and had a lot of fun with it in torchlight (jeah, I don't care about graphics at all - the game just feels great.). I will add an extended feedback on your idea soon.
    Wait for Act 10 then talk about more endgame.
    "
    kvothe1990 wrote:
    I like the idea a lot and had a lot of fun with it in torchlight (jeah, I don't care about graphics at all - the game just feels great.). I will add an extended feedback on your idea soon.


    Great, glad you like the idea :)

    "
    Wait for Act 10 then talk about more endgame.


    Of course I can't wait for the new acts, but I think recycling the existing content to create this mode would be not too resource or time intensive, since it's not much more than a variation on the map system.
    Hideout of the Week S01E04 thread: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1088847
    "
    Wait for Act 10 then talk about more endgame.


    Do you get a free coke after posting 50 pointless oneliners all over the forums?
    Last edited by return33 on Dec 3, 2013, 5:58:34 AM
    "
    return33 wrote:
    "
    Wait for Act 10 then talk about more endgame.


    Do you get a free coke after posting 50 pointless oneliners all over the forums?


    Some of the devs like my posts.
    I love this idea of COMPETITIVE endless dungeon endgame.

    But I think it would be better to keep Mapping rewarding to change a little your concept :

    - You can't earn XP, and you can't loot.
    - This mod is only COMPETITIVE.
    - A ranking system about this endless dungeon count the highest zone you reach before leave/die, the time to reach this point AND you have to CLEAR each stage (to avoid leap slam/ rusher).
    - The only reward is a chest at each stage end with random reward.
    - Separated ranking for Solo or team.
    As this players keep interest to farm/XP on maps and can make competitive challenges on this enless dungeon.

    I like your suggestions Dacthulhu!
    Hideout of the Week S01E04 thread: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1088847
    "
    Dacthulhu wrote:

    - The only reward is a chest at each stage end with random reward.



    Have the chest in a seperate room that only unlocks once all the mobs are dead, exit to the next area should also be in that room. Will stop rushing 100%

    "
    Dacthulhu wrote:

    - Separated ranking for Solo or team.



    Team mode could always have 6 player HP values, but the less players you actually have in your party will increase the points you get. Of course the downsides of this is that you will have to do more damage to clear at the same speed.
    Last edited by Knox283 on Dec 3, 2013, 10:45:42 AM
    I like the premise of this idea.

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