GGG: Your System encourages RMT and Botting.

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deteego wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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But there are other people out there. There are people who want the fast way. The argument is: If i need 100 h of dull farming gamplay, I also could run a BOT or work 2h longer this week and buy me that shit I need at RMT.

Good for them.
Let them live their lives, play the game as you want to play it and ignore them.

Srsly, this is kinda dumb, just ignore other people, if they are pathetic enough to buy some gear sold with RL-money, that's their problem.

Why do people always need to compare themselve to others ? -__-" I'll never get that I guess.

People use RMT because the game has the same amount of grind as a korean MMO, and most people can't spend 50 hours a week playing a game. Athena is right, PoE is a P2W game currently due to excessive grind and inability in most parts to play self found

I have no idea why people shun RMT so much when its the fault of GGG for designing their game in such a way. Heck I even had the thought cross my mind, its either that or to stop playing

This game is about grinding to be able to beat the content.
It's all about this, this is the very base of the game, so yeah, since it's meant to be hardcore-like, it is meant to take a lot of time.
And it is easily possible to have fun without always wanting to reach the maximum level content, where you need to grind a lot.

And people should be trading, and not only playing an onlime game with ignoring everyone else here, be should need to help eachother to progress. The fact is, there are a lot of d*cks playing the game and making trading sometime somewhat annoying, but this is just an obvious fact.



And about the D2 argument :
it is not because playing self-found is not difficult ( it is possible in PoE but extremely time consuming ), that there can't be an economy, encouraging people to trade.

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Fruz wrote:

This game is about grinding to be able to beat the content.
It's all about this, this is the very base of the game, so yeah, since it's meant to be hardcore-like, it is meant to take a lot of time.
And it is easily possible to have fun without always wanting to reach the maximum level content, where you need to grind a lot.

And people should be trading, and not only playing an onlime game with ignoring everyone else here, be should need to help eachother to progress. The fact is, there are a lot of d*cks playing the game and making trading sometime somewhat annoying, but this is just an obvious fact.

Well your partly right and mainly wrong

The game is about grinding, but (originally) that grinding was meant to be achievable self found, in the exact same way similar games like D2/TQ were, and PoE was meant to be a spiritual successor to D2

Problem is, due to PoE devs (mainly Chris) have incorrect presumptions about why and how things happened in D2, bartering happened In D2 specifically because there was no economy, and because the game could be mainly played self found. Bartering, economically speaking, is incredibly inefficient, and only exists in immature economies of very small scale. The minute you have lots of buyers and sellers participating in an economy, and lots of items being traded, your bartering system will move to an AH/Open market system, which is precisely whats happening to PoE. There is no way around this, when people are forced to collectively trade on a large scale, they find efficient ways of trading, and the most efficient form of trading is an AH with buyout style system

And why do we have lots of buyers and sellers and people wanting to trade? Its because its not really possible to play self found. Im not saying its completely impossible, but its like playing counter strike on a touchpad.

In terms of economy/trading/progression/self found, this game is nothing like D2, its much more like D3, which will soon be reverted with their expansion RoS

Chris did explicitly state that he didn't want players to spend most of their time trading (this was in context to comparing PoE to D3). Problem is, thats precisely whats happening now. He wanted bartering to be an "occasional thing", and he definitely did not want the situation now where we have an almost AH system with poe.xyz.is

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deteego wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Exactly correct: always. Which means that, if GGG "reduced the RNG," it wouldn't stop RMT at all; it would just mean that RMT sites would charge less per item, and their bots would farm more items per hour.

Actually it would, RMT's only work when based on one principle (assuming the game intentionally isn't designed with RMT in mind)

The difficulty and/or time versus reward ratio, and how well the game can be botted due to gameplay design. If it takes too much time to progress in the game and/or players do not see effective rewards for their time, they turn to RMT, plain and simple

Not really. Because it's not really a time vs reward ratio, it's a time vs dollars ratio.

For example, let's say you wanted people to grill their own hamburgers, rather than going to McDonald's. So you propose making beef significantly more plentiful, lowering the cost of beef. Now would this really impact people's decisions to go to McDonald's or not? You can anticipate changes which McDonald's would make to its pricing scheme to keep approximately the same time vs dollars ratio, ensuring customers still showed up for convenience.

The same goes for RMT. Changing any variable which makes legit farming more efficient but which also makes botting more efficient isn't really going to change anything. You're not really tinkering with demand, you're tinkering with supply, and you're tinkering it for both sides of the equation.

If you're really out to punish McDonald's, you'd need to tinker with costs which McDonald's has but self-grilling doesn't. Stuff like minimum wage and the cost of meat processing equipment. Same with RMT; there's not really anything on the legit farming side you can buff to fix the problem, you need to nerf things which are specifically RMT, like attacking botting directly.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Vincendra wrote:

I DO NOT WANT THIS GAME FALL TO BOTTING OR RMT. Please reconsider your complete RNG system, because "impatient" players will always seek a shortcut through Botting and RMT.

Exactly correct: always. Which means that, if GGG "reduced the RNG," it wouldn't stop RMT at all; it would just mean that RMT sites would charge less per item, and their bots would farm more items per hour.

The only way to "combat" RMT supply-side is to make it so players don't want your items, or want your items less. In order to destroy/reduce their dollar value, you have to destroy/reduce their value, period. Which means: destroy or cripple the gameplay for legit players. What you're proposing is kind of like chemotherapy: poisoning the body in order to poison the cancer. However, RMT is resilient, and chances are such measures would kill the game itself just as quickly as they killed RMT.

The real way to combat RMT is through investigation and punishment of RMT participants. Surgery, not chemotherapy.

I'll give you an example: Let's say we take the actual Droprate of all Orbs and multiply them with 100.

In that case I would have found 400 Exalts and 10.000 of Alt Orbs. Enough to Craft any gear id possibly want in 7 Days playtime. (160h ~).

Lets say all people would have drops like that.

YOU CAN YOLO EXALT FOR RES.

YOU CAN YOLO REGAL GOOD ROLLED BLUES.

YOU CAN CRAFT ITEMS AT WHEN YOU NEED THEM.

YES, GOOD UNIQUE WOULD MAYBE COST 10k EXALTS INSTEAD OF 100.


Yes. RMT would be there. Yes, RMT would sell 100 Ex, instead of 1 for the same Price as now.

BUT: If I can easily find Items i need to craft while playing, I dont need to buy them anywhere. When I drop 10-20 Ex. in 2-3 farming as a Casual Player, why should I RMT?

Why should I buy a Voltaxic Rift for 10k Ex if I can easily craft a nearly same Result (though a Voltaxic alters gameplay alot in that case, a rare will never compare.)


I'd like to say that this is an EXTREME example, but it does give my OP value. If more "crafting" is "more steadily" available, RMT will be used less.

IT DOESNT TAKE AWAY RMT, BUT IT WILL GREATLY REDUCE THE INCOME FOR RMT.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Not really. Because it's not really a time vs reward ratio, it's a time vs dollars ratio.

Money is liquid, time is not. Money can be faked, you can get people from asia farming for $5 an hour to sell westerners items that cost $1 but take 5 hours to farm.

Its all down to time vs reward, it has nothing to do with money. Games with good time vs reward ratios either have no RMT, or a really crappy one

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deteego wrote:

The fact that blizzard banned people is no indication they cared about trading, its an indication they cared about forcing people to legitimately play their game

You could say the same for nerfing the drop rates of jars. Jar hunting is not a legitimate way to play the game according to GGG, so they nerfed it. You can't prove this was explicitly targeted at botters.

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deteego wrote:

Honestly get off your high horse, when the original designers of D2 said that they designed their game to be played, with no economy (and they said this in relevance to D3), they bloody meant it, and they had the exact same thoughts in mind when they made D2

If D2 was made with an economy in mind then,

1. There would have been no gold limit
2. There would have made decimaled or grouped currencies (like 100 copper = 1 silver) to make trading easier
3. It would have been, more or less, unable to progress well on self found (major difference between D2 and PoE)

1. Gold limit is no indication that blizzard never designed D2 with the economy in mind. Runes and their drop rates are an indication of the opposite.

2. They made trading easier in other (more efficient) ways, such as trade chat and a safe trade interface.

3. I recently beat merciless self-found, so no idea what you're on about.

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You are ignoring what the original D1/D2 developers said about their game design and philosophy, the people that actually created D2. Just because some people (and its obvious you are one of those people) lived in their own bubble where they created an economy, doesn't mean that the D2 devs, when they design D2, sat down and said, "this game is going to have an economy, where we expect people to acquire items primarily through trading at some stage of the game"

I'm ignoring it because it's irrelevant how TL2 was created. D2's devs never ever said they didn't design their game without the economy in mind, and their actions speak for themselves.

I'm done with this, you clearly only played D2 after development stopped.

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Novalisk wrote:

1. Gold limit is no indication that blizzard never designed D2 with the economy in mind. Runes and their drop rates are an indication of the opposite.

Wrong

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Novalisk wrote:

2. They made trading easier in other (more efficient) ways, such as trade chat and a safe trade interface.

Yes, because the general chat was being spammed with people trying to tround and was found unusable for anything else, PoE had the same issue.

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Novalisk wrote:

3. I recently beat merciless self-found, so no idea what you're on about.

Try maps

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Novalisk wrote:

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You are ignoring what the original D1/D2 developers said about their game design and philosophy, the people that actually created D2. Just because some people (and its obvious you are one of those people) lived in their own bubble where they created an economy, doesn't mean that the D2 devs, when they design D2, sat down and said, "this game is going to have an economy, where we expect people to acquire items primarily through trading at some stage of the game"

I'm ignoring it because it's irrelevant how TL2 was created. D2's devs never ever said they didn't design their game without the economy in mind, and their actions speak for themselves.

They did, read relic blogs

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Novalisk wrote:

I'm done with this, you clearly only played D2 after development stopped.

Wrong again

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Vincendra wrote:

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Novalisk wrote:

NM= Nemesis, so you're well into hardcore already with a nice map pool and you're enjoying races.

Try coming up with a good unique build of your own? You seem to have the aptitude for it.

This thread is not about me beeing bored with my DOM character, its about people who are bored/cant be arsed to farm hundreds of hours and then refer to RMT /Botting.

I have found a way to enjoy POE in various ways, thanks for your concern.

im sorry if ive revived this thread, but it looks like youve beaten the game (in your own right). 99% of the community hasnt been there yet. You are the 1% thats done most of everything. Like all MMOs when you've collected all your gear, done all the raid content on 7 different chars and are now waiting for the devs to throw new content, youre in limbo. Face it now as this is the truth. Move onto another MMO/game and come back to POE in a year and things will be fresh. You wont have all these problems you have now. Done.

I absolutely agree with OP. POE quickly turns into a grindfest where only the most dedicated players haveany chance to get to a point where you can feel you really built something. Ive been playing for 160 hours now and have never even seen an exalt or have been anywhere near being able to craft something half decent. Poe is supposed to be hardcore but this is just bollocks, I am a hardcore gamer, have been so for 25 years like many others here, but I also have a job, gf and a social life. I play around 10 hours a week and in the state poe is in now ill get bored loooong before I get rewarded for my time.

One very simple and fundamental mistake ggg makes is that it lowers drop rates to shun botters and rmt but they're doing the exactopposite. It actually makes the game only rewarding if you resort to cheating. Make those bleeding droprates reasonable, reward people more for their time, tweak rng and streamline ingame trading (really, its a mess now, even the party screen get bullshitted by traders seeking a etter way to do their thing). Im afraid if you don't you'll go down, because the old D2 crowd is mature now and they dont want to go nolife to fully enjoy your game anymore, and Iif you invest 160 hours in a game I expect to feel somewhat rewarded or at least able to craft something half decent.

Fuck even krip said he only found a handfull of your exalts in his career and that says a lot!
Any good game should be findable and soloable to a reasonable extent otherwise its not a proper game, and this has nothing to do with being hardcore or not!

Why would you try to 6L that POS item?

Pro-tip: You could have bought a 6L for cheaper.



I would love to see a bot in the Nemesis league. It would RIP!


Also I don't get a lot of playtime in either. Achieving a godly build is not possible for us. And it really shouldn't be. The game would bore for the people who play hours on end and they are the ones who make the game. They get the items and sell them to us for cheaper. You really want to bore them out of the game?

Also the trick is to create a build that does not use godly gear. Join the new leagues in fresh economies to acquire wealth. Don't roll items yourself, trade for them. Its MUCH cheaper. Crafting is for high end players.


Every build I create can solo maps and do not require godly gear. Though all the builds I have created have ended up nerfed. But that is the point. Come up with something new, that doesn't require godly gear and hours and hours of time. Look for those powerful skills and low cost uniques and go from there.

I have a build I came up with for the 1 week race coming up:
Quad Curse, Dual Totem, Shock Stacking Trapper.

You see I need no high end gear for this and I do insane damage w/o specing into any damage nodes. Hardcore as well. Makes use of the multipliers GGG supplies you with.