weird / wrong dmg calculations with leveled support gems ?
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Hi,
i'll take the risk to make myself a complete idiot , but i dont get the calculations behind support gem's that first reduce the damage by a fixed amount and then add x% dmg when you start leveling them. my example here is the Fork suport gem when i started playing a couple of months ago, i took a fast look at the description of the gem, wich say's: projectile dmg is reduced by 20%, arrows fork, each level of the gem gives 2% projectile dmg. so i thought when the gem hits level 11 the bonus and malus will even out and never looked at it again, until i lately started to experiment with setups. having a level 14 Fork gem with 26% add projectile dmg linked to my burnig Arrow, i noticed that i still had around 10% less dmg then without Fork. okay i thought my bad, the calculation has to be: reduce the dmg by 20% and then give the bonus based on the 80% value, but that does'nt matched the numbers again. at 26% add dmg it should give slightly more dmg, even from a 20% lower starting point. so now iam clueless, either the calculation is wrong or much more complicated, at least the description is missleading could someone plaese lighten me up ? Ingame dmg calculations and numbers:
Spoiler
Starting Value: Burning Arrow level 15 without linked gems and auras, but with equipp (Armor and Gear) is at 926.3 DpS, with level 14 Fork (+26%) its at 825.6 DpS my first thought how the calculation looks like was: (DpS/100 x 80) + (DpS/100 x 26) = 741.04 + 240.80 = 981.84 way off so most likely wrong ;) my second thought was: (DpS/100 x 80) + ((DpS/100 x 80)/100 x 26) = 741.04 + 192.7 = 933.74 still way off... last guess i have is that the first step (-20%) reduces projectile dmg completely , but the second step (+26%) only counts for physical dmg, but iam too tired now to calculate this ps. is there a thread here in the forums with a description how to link ingame items into posts ? Last edited by thismeanstest on Dec 16, 2012, 2:46:03 AM
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There are two types of multipliers: increased / decreased and more / less. Increased / decreased multipliers are added together before they multiply the base stat. More / less are multiplied after increased / decreased is figured out.
So, let's say you have 100 base physical damage, +30% increased physical damage , +30% increased projectile damage and your fork. You fork is 26% increased damage, and 20% less damage. the total damage is: 100 * (1 + .3 + .3 + .26) * (1 - .2) = 148.8 damage. You have a positive "increased" multiplier of 30% + 30% + 26% = 86%, but then you have the -20% that gets multiplied on top of all of those, not subtracted from them. Make sense? |
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" hiya, to be honest, no, that doesn't seem to make sense, at least not for me :) maybe you didn't read what i wrote in the spoiler, but if i follow your calculations i would end up with a lot more dmg (no matter wich numbers you used), but thats not the case, its about 10% less from what i expected using that one gem. so putting my DpS 926.3 into your formular and ignore the two .3 increases (wich the Fork gem doesn't has) and only use the .26 "incrase" and the 20% "less" it shows. (926.3 * 1.26) * (1 - .2) = 933.7 wich is way of from 825.6DpS shown ingame.... so iam still clueless ;P |
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Less and More are multiplicative modifiers, and Increased/Decreased are additive. They are used in different stages; first Inc/Dec, then Less/More.
+20% Increased and -20% Less damage would result in: 100 + 20% =120 120 - 20% =96 +20% Increased and -20% Decreased would cancel eachother out, since they are applied at the same stage; 100 + 20% - 20% = 100 (EDIT: Nope, they're entirely separate multipliers! 100 * 1.2 = 120, 120 * 0.8 = 96) Similarly, Less and More will cancel eachother out. The reason your calculations don't work, is because you are applying Fork's multipliers onto numbers that already include a whole lot of multipliers. However, the Increased Damage modifier is added to any existing Increased Damage, meaning you need to start way at the beginning of the calculation. Last edited by Vipermagi on Dec 27, 2012, 3:10:31 AM
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" To expand on this a bit, your "base" damage is your bow damage + any "add x to y physical damage" mods you have on our gear, not the dps that is shown on the skill without any gems. Then you probably have a bunch of bonuses to your damage from your skill tree. You probably have increased physical damage, increased projectile damage, maybe increased fire damage for burning arrow. Since I don't know what your gear / skill tree is, lets pretend you have: Weapon damage 100-200 physical damage 10-20 extra physical damage from gear +30% increased physical damage +20% increased projectile damage +40% increased fire damage. Fork (+26% increased projectile damage, -20% less projectile damage) you start with 110 - 220 as base physical. That will be multiplied by (1 + .3 + .2 + .26 ) * (1 - .2) = 1.408 Then, add the fire damage from burning arrow: it's 30% of your base physical, but you also get your fire damage to this: (1 + .3 + .2 + .26 + .4) * (.3) * (1 - .2) = .5184 it might also be, I'm not 100% sure how the increased fire damage is handled. (1 + .3 + .2 + .26) * (1 + .4) * (.3) * (1 - .2) = .5913 So you will do 154.8 to 309.6 physical damage plus 57 to 114 fire damage Hope that was a bit clearer. |
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hi again,
first, thanks to Vipermagi and durinstorm for the hints to lighten me up. with that input i started some more calculations and following Vipers tip i started at the very beginning or as simple as possible. i took off all Gear and armor, grabbed a 4L white bow, slotted a Puncture Gem instead of Burning Arrow (cause it has no modifiers), counted my passive boni by type (wich was the most important)and started calculating while only looking at the max dmg value of the bow. my passives are: +51% projectile dmg, +52% bow dmg and +18% physical dmg with these numbers i was able to match the numbers (no matter witch support gems i added) from my calculations with the numbers shown in the ingame character sheet, with only a slight difference wich are probably caused by the client rounding the numbers at some stages of the calculating. at this point its realy easy with just plain bow dmg, you just add all the passives multiply it with bow dmg or in case of support gems , add the increased dmg too and apply the less dmg% at last but.... the whole thing starts to get tricky when you put on gear with add dmg even it is only added physical dmg. adding 50 points phys dmg from rings to the bow dmg and doing the same math again resulted in odd numbers again until i realized my fault. the point is my +52% bow dmg nodes i picked, wich only applys to the plain white dmg of the bow, not to any other dmg from other scources. i won't dive deeper into this now, because this difference alone from that +bow dmg explains most of my faults in the initial calculations in the first post (not to mention the difference between inc/decrease and more/less that i learned) and i feel enlighten enough to be happy :P now iam off to search the passive tree , to find more projectile dmg nodes and get rid of the bow nodes if possible ^^ |
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"Bow Damage" is described as Increased Physical Damage with Bows, so any Elemental damage will not be increased. The Elemental damage is dealt via a Projectile, so Projectile damage will increase it (that's why Proj Damage is such a good modifier to get). Both should work on ex. the Iron Ring's innate damage though? That is Physical damage after all.
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heya,
just double checked the bonus from rings for example like: adds 8 - 14 phys dmg is not increased by +bow phys dmg nodes, while +projectile nodes increase all dmg types no matter if the scource is gear, skills or the weapon mods itself (phys and elemental). that made me think that projectile nodes are superior to bow nodes on the other hand. if the bow nodes are supposed to add to the sum of phys dmg from all scources (bow, jewlery, quiver and armor) than we have a bug here. |
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