Iron Will vs Iron Grip

Iron Will vs Iron Grip

Both Iron Will (IW) and Iron Grip (IG) serve nearly identical function: convert your strength based damage bonus into your offense of choice. They are clearly powerful abilities with suitable builds.

Iron Grip exists as a keystone and costs a single passive point and is solely beneficial. To restate; Iron Grip costs about 1% of your passive point pool and provides substantial benefit and only substantial benefit.

Iron Will, on the other hand, exists only as a support gem. It is almost entirely useless until level 16 or so because the added damage is offset by the slowed speed. Iron Will costs about 20% of your (typical for most players) 5L pool. Your 5L pool is the most restrictive resource you contend with in this game. Using slots in your 5L equipment incurs the highest opportunity cost in the game, by far.

Why?

Why is Iron Will not available as a keystone. A perfect place would be over by that strength based caster hybrid guy who currently has no close and useful caster keystones. That guy everyone avoids because he shuns pants. You know of whom I speak.

P.S. I want to preemptively bash the straw man concerning Iron Will cannot be a keystone because it's much too powerful for casters, while Iron Grip is perfectly balanced for archers. I think we all know, even if we don't want to admit it just yet, that {Ice Shot - Chain - Faceroll - Win} is currently the dominant offense in the game.
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Randysatyr wrote:
P.S. I want to preemptively bash the straw man concerning Iron Will cannot be a keystone because it's much too powerful for casters, while Iron Grip is perfectly balanced for archers. I think we all know, even if we don't want to admit it just yet, that {Ice Shot - Chain - Faceroll - Win} is currently the dominant offense in the game.

Just curiosity: Does that build use Iron Grip though? I'd imagine gunning for WED and Projectile Damage is a whole lot more effective than some small amounts of Physical damage from Strength.
I think Iron Will would be fine as a keystone. It would overshadow the support, but honestly both Iron supports are terrible and need changes. As you pointed out, the penalty at low lvls is horrendous (combined with the fact that at low lvls you won't have much STR to benefit from as well!). Remove the penalty entirely and add like 1% spell/physbow dmg per lvl and they might be competitive with other supports.

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Vipermagi wrote:
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Randysatyr wrote:
P.S. I want to preemptively bash the straw man concerning Iron Will cannot be a keystone because it's much too powerful for casters, while Iron Grip is perfectly balanced for archers. I think we all know, even if we don't want to admit it just yet, that {Ice Shot - Chain - Faceroll - Win} is currently the dominant offense in the game.

Just curiosity: Does that build use Iron Grip though? I'd imagine gunning for WED and Projectile Damage is a whole lot more effective than some small amounts of Physical damage from Strength.


Iron Grip is fairly useless for an optimal DPS archer build (optimal being elemental/crit, and IMO LA is better than Ice Shot because Ice Shot does not shotgun very well with chain) though it's good for a tankier, more strength heavy archer.

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aimlessgun wrote:

Iron Grip is fairly useless for an optimal DPS archer build (optimal being elemental/crit, and IMO LA is better than Ice Shot because Ice Shot does not shotgun very well with chain) though it's good for a tankier, more strength heavy archer.



That was my point. Facerolling chained ice shot on a strength heavy build using Iron Grip is much more powerful than any spell on a strength heavy build using (a theoretical keystone) Iron Will.
I've been asking for an Iron Will keystone for awhile now.
yeah, i was always confused by the lack of iron will over by the templar too.

it doesn't really make any sense to me, it should be his strongpoint and would open up some interesting new blood magic/str casters instead of just nothing but CI everywhere forever and ever.

it'd also make the templar more appealing to start as, and fits his hybrid str/int role perfectly.

no idea why it doesn't exist, would love to see it in there, then i might play a templar ever.
iron will keystone would be nice in the templar area imo.
ign = ultrahiangle
While I wouldn't be adverse to the iron will keystone being added, I want to say that ice shot+chain is by no means even close to the most dominant bow skill, let alone offense. To be frank? Ice shot + chain sounds prettttty bad, compared with its alternatives, LA, Ele hit and Split Arrow.
Alright, maybe I derailed my own thread . . . enough about my snarky comment on archers.

My point is, there is no good reason to punish casters by making Iron Will only available as a crappy support skill. And a late blooming support skill at that. Iron Will is no more powerful than Iron Grip, a keystone easily reachable by everyone as it sits in the center of the tree. Frankly, by the time you can use Iron Will as a support, you're probably filling that red slot with IIQ.

My tertiary point was that Templar is an exceptionally weak start. I don't plan to play one in OB because, well, the avatar resembles the pantless old dude parked in front of the middle school. Nonetheless, Templar is the one class furthest from any decent keystone. There is not a compelling reason to choose this starting point at all (unless you're into pantless pedos, no judgement on my part if you are).

If you want to bring the Templar back to his former glory, stick an Iron Will keystone back in the vicinity of Avatard of Fire, and change the skill from strength bonus to spell power to strength bonus to elemental power. Now you have a class that can kick ass with spells or elemental weapons. A true hybrid. But still without pants. And that pedo beard.



Even if Iron Will keystone was added it would not change the fact both these support are stupid and way underpowered. They at best save you couple of passive points (not 1 as OP stated as you need to get to Iron Grip area), but we all know linked slots in equipment are worth more then couple of points.

At least with Point Blank support you get a chance to link it to one skill and only that skills is better at close range but worse at long and you can use other skills at long. These two have zero tactical options, you either have the bonus or you don't.

To compete with Keystone (or future Keystones) these supports should start with 0 penalty and start giving bonuses when they level.

Last edited by Torin on Dec 8, 2012, 11:08:30 AM

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