Multiple Projectile Voidbearers

"
DutchRudder wrote:
People need to start using things like freeze mine beartrap frost wall minions conversion trap temp chains etc, these guys are easily countered if you use a dynamic bunch of skills or just get aegis aurora and spellblock and fall asleep infront of the cells boss, tempest shield and spell block also owns these guys

I have been playing a squishy crit archer with only 1600 es and 750 life at level 66 in maps and have had no problems with these guys, bear trap and frist wall then spam and kite 1 or 2 crits take care of them and my res are all below 30 atm lol


yepp dynamic skills, all these sort of 'interesting' combos of skills and derived 'strategies' are useless in arpg's. This is what I was trying to tell john keys about his wanted intelligent monster AI and interesting attack patterns, they dont belong to an arpg. How many people actually bother with frost mine, frost wall, decoy totem, chance to flee gem or summons outside of being a summoner class? And fire / bear traps are also used for their damage, not because they actually do anything tactical (bear trap's immobilise is just a nice small bonus, nothing gamebreaking). Why? Because this all breaks up the action, instead of bringing you closer to it. This is not a strategy game, but an ARPG. ACTION R P G
"
ancalagon3000 wrote:
"
DutchRudder wrote:
People need to start using things like freeze mine beartrap frost wall minions conversion trap temp chains etc, these guys are easily countered if you use a dynamic bunch of skills or just get aegis aurora and spellblock and fall asleep infront of the cells boss, tempest shield and spell block also owns these guys

I have been playing a squishy crit archer with only 1600 es and 750 life at level 66 in maps and have had no problems with these guys, bear trap and frist wall then spam and kite 1 or 2 crits take care of them and my res are all below 30 atm lol


yepp dynamic skills, all these sort of 'interesting' combos of skills and derived 'strategies' are useless in arpg's. This is what I was trying to tell john keys about his wanted intelligent monster AI and interesting attack patterns, they dont belong to an arpg. How many people actually bother with frost mine, frost wall, decoy totem, chance to flee gem or summons outside of being a summoner class? And fire / bear traps are also used for their damage, not because they actually do anything tactical (bear trap's immobilise is just a nice small bonus, nothing gamebreaking). Why? Because this all breaks up the action, instead of bringing you closer to it. This is not a strategy game, but an ARPG. ACTION R P G


actually, I agree with DutchRudder 100%. "smarter" team-working mobs force you to use more skills, and more interesting and creative solutions. it makes the game so much deeper, and the difficulty hard for a reason instead of just cheap.

quite frankly, I find your claim that these do not belong in an ARPG absolutely wrong.
and again, I advise you to play more games. more recent ARPGs and find out for yourself.
beating a boss that threw everything including the kitchen sink at you, feels so much more rewarding than a single-attack-spamming-one-shot-machine Fidelitas.
THIS is why I love Vaal Oversoul so much - not because he's "easy" as you claim.

the main problem I see with your approach, is you think smart enemies = slower gameplay. a "stop and think about your next move" kind of thing. early Final Fantasy. "chess".
you can't be more wrong: smart enemies can exist in a lightning-fast game where every decision you make needs to be made NOW. it keeps you on your toes while still thinking and experimenting.
again, case in point: Torchlight 2. it's far from being my "dream ARPG" in this regard (many "1-click spam" methods do work) - but it sure is well ahead of PoE when it comes to AI.

I love this game - despite all it's flaws - make no mistake about it. otherwise I wouldn't have bothered with feedback and hundreds of hours playing.
but unlike many innovative ideas (the awesome skill system for one), most mobs seem to be stuck in D2 days. fun, but can be so much better.

Spoiler
this is how my serious-type replies look like. stop trolling and throwing insults or off-topic remarks - and you'll get more of those
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
Last edited by johnKeys on Aug 20, 2013, 10:23:11 AM
"
johnKeys wrote:
"
ancalagon3000 wrote:
"
DutchRudder wrote:
People need to start using things like freeze mine beartrap frost wall minions conversion trap temp chains etc, these guys are easily countered if you use a dynamic bunch of skills or just get aegis aurora and spellblock and fall asleep infront of the cells boss, tempest shield and spell block also owns these guys

I have been playing a squishy crit archer with only 1600 es and 750 life at level 66 in maps and have had no problems with these guys, bear trap and frist wall then spam and kite 1 or 2 crits take care of them and my res are all below 30 atm lol


yepp dynamic skills, all these sort of 'interesting' combos of skills and derived 'strategies' are useless in arpg's. This is what I was trying to tell john keys about his wanted intelligent monster AI and interesting attack patterns, they dont belong to an arpg. How many people actually bother with frost mine, frost wall, decoy totem, chance to flee gem or summons outside of being a summoner class? And fire / bear traps are also used for their damage, not because they actually do anything tactical (bear trap's immobilise is just a nice small bonus, nothing gamebreaking). Why? Because this all breaks up the action, instead of bringing you closer to it. This is not a strategy game, but an ARPG. ACTION R P G


actually, I agree with DutchRudder 100%. "smarter" team-working mobs force you to use more skills, and more interesting and creative solutions. it makes the game so much deeper, and the difficulty hard for a reason instead of just cheap.

quite frankly, I find your claim that these do not belong in an ARPG absolutely ridiculous.
and again, I advise you to play more games. more recent ARPGs and find out for yourself.
beating a boss that threw everything including the kitchen sink at you, feels so much more rewarding than a single-attack-spamming-one-shot-machine Fidelitas.
THIS is why I love Vaal Oversoul so much - not because he's "easy" as you claim.

the main problem I see with your approach, is you think smart enemies = slower gameplay. a "stop and think about your next move" kind of thing. early Final Fantasy. "chess".
you can't be more wrong: smart enemies can exist in a lightning-fast game where every decision you make needs to be made NOW. it keeps you on your toes while still thinking and experimenting.
again, case in point: Torchlight 2. it's far from being my "dream ARPG" in this regard (many "1-click spam" methods do work) - but it sure is well ahead of PoE when it comes to AI.

I love this game - despite all it's flaws - make no mistake about it. otherwise I wouldn't have bothered with feedback and hundreds of hours playing.
but unlike many innovative ideas (the awesome skill system for one), most mobs seem to be stuck in D2 days. fun, but can be so much better.


POE is in fact, heavily d2 based and you can say its part of an arpg subgenre which consists of it and d1 / d2 / d3.

your argument single handedly one shot

"smarter" team-working mobs force you to use more skills, and more interesting and creative solutions. it makes the game so much deeper, and the difficulty hard for a reason instead of just cheap. --> This is not a strategy or FF / dark souls style game, and the difficulty isnt cheap, its just that glass cannons are abundant. We discussed it over and over and i am so sick of it that i feel like i am on a boat in a heavy storm about to retch up all my insides, we will just leave it at that. Agree to disagree.

Look I came across a new tank build with decent dps, trollfacing blacksmith, I dont like it as much because its a jack of all trades that wont do as good as a typical block / spell block build, but still so cool lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElV0d-8x0R0
Last edited by ancalagon3000 on Aug 20, 2013, 10:25:38 AM
@ancalagon3000 we will agree to disagree, but please read my entire post - the one you replied to - instead of skimming through only part of it.
I mentioned FF explicitly.
Dark Souls? while it has what I like to some degree, it's still mostly based on over-the-top damage for it's difficulty. one simple hit from the lowliest enemy and *poof* 1/3 of your HP is gone.

the key point I'm trying to make is, numbers-based crazy-damage 1-shot mechanics should exist, but only as another layer after AI - not a replacement to AI.

I think the core of our argument is that you define "glass cannon" differently than I do.
you think anyone who's less tanky than the characters you demonstrated in the videos is a "glass cannon". I don't.
I won't build such characters for three reasons:

1) I find slow, full-tank gameplay just as boring, as staying back while your Spark Totems clean house.

2) I will never get the gear required to build such a character, and even if I do - it will probably just be a random drop, and not a reward after a tough fight.
(RNG. another topic entirely, which I promised myself I'd never discuss again because it's pointless).

3) anything this tanky often includes some form of exploit of a bug or a flawed mechanic. I don't do that.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
"
johnKeys wrote:
the key point I'm trying to make is, numbers-based crazy-damage 1-shot mechanics should exist, but only as another layer after AI - not a replacement to AI.


Sigh / facepalm / giving up here. Crazy damage 1 shots exist because most builds dont bother with some form of defenses. I am not saying every build should be like a tank marauder. Crazy damage has been in this style of arpg's, which are all about min maxing, since diablo 1. Do you not remember just chugging endless volleys of pots vs hordes of succubi or chargers or acid terrors or magma demons, with or without maxed resists? (Yet I never got sick of playing that game before d2 came out) What intelligent AI did they have? Whatever it is you are speaking of, it doesn't belong to said games imo because it breaks up the action into something entirely different. I originally found vaal oversoul to be a bit out of whack as a boss in fact, when he would constantly tunnel in and out and summon slowing ice and endless hordes of minions, when all I wanted to do was whack on him. It took considerably longer than it should have.

"
johnKeys wrote:

I think the core of our argument is that you define "glass cannon" differently than I do.
you think anyone who's less tanky than the characters you demonstrated in the videos is a "glass cannon". I don't.


no, glass cannon = little to no defenses, not anything which isnt full defensive.

"
johnKeys wrote:

I won't build such characters for three reasons:

1) I find slow, full-tank gameplay just as boring, as staying back while your Spark Totems clean house.


Thats ok, I can understand that. But the fact that everything in the game can be tanked to a t, means that there is no issue with monster or boss damage in this game, just builds omitting certain defenses into their playstyle. Even simple things like choosing ew / cw curse vs a boss instead of enfeeble and then complaining about his damage is retarded.

"
johnKeys wrote:

2) I will never get the gear required to build such a character, and even if I do - it will probably just be a random drop, and not a reward after a tough fight.
(RNG. another topic entirely, which I promised myself I'd never discuss again because it's pointless).


Thats so funny, a tanky character can be built for cheap. Soul taker and AA are just for rich people who want to min-max. (Also in that video I linked, he isnt using ANY uniques) Strawman arguments and you know it.

"
johnKeys wrote:

3) anything this tanky often includes some form of exploit of a bug or a flawed mechanic. I don't do that.


More strawman arguments. I'd like you to tell me what is exploitable about what I showed you so far.
My question is why do spells get to shotgun.

To me multiple projectiles seems like it should be an anti group affix.

Right now its just an anti melee affix.

Sure theres spell block and potions but potion dont do too much to help against the cells boss, even with 79% base res before the pot, and spell block items have a huge downside of not having other important affixes you could gain with a good rare such as life or ES.

I think multipro spells should function the same as attacks. You should only be able to get hit by one of the projectiles, or in the case of voidbearers, one of the jets of fire.
"
My question is why do spells get to shotgun.

To me multiple projectiles seems like it should be an anti group affix.

Right now its just an anti melee affix.


Shotgunning specific to spells seems bugged / unintended. Multiple projectiles should be anti-group yes, for the most part.

"
Sure theres spell block and potions but potion dont do too much to help against the cells boss, even with 79% base res before the pot, and spell block items have a huge downside of not having other important affixes you could gain with a good rare such as life or ES.


tbh cells boss doesnt hurt that much with even 81 res (EA and purity), anyways ... sacrificing some life / es for spell block is more than worth it, high spell block means you barely ever get hit and can outregen when you do ... why would you need the extra life then? Also, enfeeble and granite. It is a partly physical spell.

"

I think multipro spells should function the same as attacks. You should only be able to get hit by one of the projectiles, or in the case of voidbearers, one of the jets of fire.


yes
Last edited by ancalagon3000 on Aug 21, 2013, 3:01:38 AM
Yeah, I typically have no problems with this mob if I know Im going to be facing a multi version of it.

Its during group play with all the effects not being able to see anything and just being almost instakilled that irks me about them.

Spell block wouldnt even be necessary if spells couldnt shotgun.

Im hoping they change this.
@ancalagon3000

1) not "Strawman Arguments", opinion.
as for #3 - no where in any of the videos is the build shown, so I don't know.
but the amount and types of auras alone, makes me wonder.
the "big aura patch" brought with it so many people whining about GGG fixing some of the exploits, they were foolish enough to base their entire build around.
you should check yours :)

2) the start of your post proved me you didn't really read mine. certainly didn't bother understanding the point.
look, I enjoyed D1 and D2 a lot (still play both occasionally). I also played games the genre was born from. ones you probably didn't get the chance to experience because you were too young, or probably not yet born back then.
that's all IN THE PAST.
ARPGs have come a long way since. much has changed, and a lot of it for the better.

Path Of Exile took D2 as a solid foundation to build up from, but while things like the skill system "went skyward", the monster design remained mostly at ground level.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun

Report Forum Post

Report Account:

Report Type

Additional Info