GGG wants us to exploit this game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gX6ZBydHH4

I felt like making a topic here since I am currently arguing this in off-topic (as it pertains to Kripp being permabanned from GW2), and I think it's devolved into a discussion that is relevant to POE:

If you bother to watch the whole video provided, then you can understand the points I'm going to make here:

1. Learning to 'beat a game' is the same as learning to 'exploit mechanics in a game to win'.

2. There are two kinds of exploitation: the kind the developers want and the kind developers don't want.

The word "exploit" in relation to playing a game does not naturally imply you are actually doing anything wrong until the game designer explicitly states you are doing something wrong -- or it is clear you are abusing a programming error in the game.

Granted, most companies like Blizzard or ArenaNet consider all exploits bad, but before you jump to their defense, consider how Path of Exile works:

I can buy a 3L+ multicolored item and sell it back to the vendor for a profit.
I can buy a 6S item and sell it back to the vendor for profit.
I can find a way (in theory) to have an always-full Diamond Flask by killing 80 monsters in the duration it provides.
I can find a way to have more life regen than monsters can out damage.

These are all valid "strategies" to "beating a game" in the same way they are all ways to "exploit game mechanics". The only thing that makes them different from actions you might consider valid unconsciously, is the fact that they are very effective/powerful. When a way to "beat the game" is powerful and "unbalances" gameplay for others, it may be labeled an exploit.

A developer must decide if such mechanics are balanced. If they are not, that action is an "exploit". In the sense that it is an "illegal move". This is why games have rules.

In the case of botting, abusing bad programming -- you are not "beating the system" but circumventing it, thus game designers consider that behavior bad. I would agree that someone should be banned for performing an action that is knowingly "circumventing the system" or "exploiting the non-game-flaws in the system".

But if someone finds a way to be powerful in Path of Exile - that isn't an exploit until the developers decide to nerf it. In fact, in regards to what Jonathan says, finding and executing exploits in a game is FUN. I'm inclined to agree. I used to have fun using cheat codes or finding secrets or finding ridiculous strategies in games. Games have become very sterile as of late, as they are leaning toward Blizzard's operating definition of "exploit" in which I must play the game exactly as they describe and that any unanticipated action by an end-user is immediately an exploit.
My Keystone Ideas: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/744282
Last edited by anubite on Aug 30, 2012, 11:00:48 PM
You are fundamentally wrong. This post is erroneous and misleading, and your grasp of the etymology of the word 'exploit' is lacking.

A puerile thread.
"
maxie12 wrote:
You are fundamentally wrong. This post is erroneous and misleading, and your grasp of the etymology of the word 'exploit' is lacking.

A puerile thread.


You are wrong.

See? I can make statements without any argument too. You scarcely had the time to watch even half of that 17 minute video and read my long-winded post, by the way.

--

and I hardly think my use of the word exploit is incorrect

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+exploit&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS469US469&sugexp=chrome,mod=12&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Even if it were, words evolve. Their context matters.
My Keystone Ideas: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/744282
Last edited by anubite on Aug 30, 2012, 10:43:28 PM
You are fundamentally right. This post is accurate and insightful, and your grasp of our philosophy behind the word 'exploit' is heartwarming.

A great thread.


But we're going to have to nerf it. ;)
Balance & Design
Last edited by Rory on Aug 30, 2012, 10:50:01 PM
Reposting my views from the other thread:
This issue is clouded by mixing uses of exploit for different meanings, but what it comes down to is what Jonathan says in that video, which is that when people think they're explioting the system, they're having a fun.
People actually finding and using actual exploits in the game is bad, but we want people to feel like they are.

In short, people exploiting the game (in the truest sense of the word) is bad, but people feeling like they're exploiting the game is good (because that's fun).

So we want there to be things which aren't exploits (because we've very specifically put them there and intend for them to be used that way), but which feel to the user like exploits.
The diamond flask as discussed in the video is a great example. We put it there knowing that people would try their best to break it. And despite the fact that everyone knows we've put it in for that and balanced so it will probably not be completely broken, when someone finds a way to kill 80 monsters while under the flask effect so they can use it again immediately, that feels like an exploit. You feel like you're 'beating the system', even though the system is built to handle this. And that feeling of beating/exploiting the system is fun - and doesn't depend on it actually being an exploit.
Last edited by Mark_GGG on Aug 30, 2012, 10:55:03 PM
Just one thing I'd like to note, if someone does find a way to keep their Diamond Flask ever full, that number is going to be pushed higher than 80.

I have no problem nerfing short term fun for the greater good.

Aw ---- I ----ing love you guys.

I stand by my belief that as long as an exploit is the players' eyes is not an exploit in the developers' eyes, all is good.
Warhammer 40k Inquisitor: where shotgunning is not only not nerfed, it is deeply encouraged.

Dogma > Souls, but they're masterworks all. You can't go wrong.

I was right about PoE2 needing to be a separate, new game. It was really obvious.
I'm having trouble filling in the blanks Charan. Please elaborate.
RIP Bolto
There's a key difference here. If a player finds a way to make a very powerful that resides entirely within the mechanics of the game then that's a legitimate 'exploit'. I don't really consider this an exploit though. If the rules allow it then it's fair regardless of how unbalanced it may be.

If a player is using 3rd party programs/macros/hacks/whatever or is abusing game glitches then that's an illegitimate exploit. That player is violating the game's terms of service and should be banned.

"
Charan wrote:
Aw ---- I ----ing love you guys.

Logic would suggest 'shit' and 'fucking' but you never know. Go crazy.
Forum Sheriff
My refinement of Tpapp's assessment is that not only does it have to be within the system and mechanics, but also intended to be within the system and mechanics.

The sheer number of things that are possible within most complex systems is too great to account for in their entirety all the time, by humans, particularly with the addition of typo's that make a 1000 gold sword only cost 100.

We've talked about this before on these boards, however the player needs to use some common sense. If you are truly getting something that is tiers ahead of close alternatives, it's an exploit and you should report it.

Sometimes, even if devs are aware of a situation, that can STILL be a bad exploit if the overall result is drastically OP compared to alternatives... and devs that don't fix exploits that are a couple whole standard deviations above alternatives are simply bad devs.
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