Defining one's class

I can see the point of classes being a little pointless, that you may as well pick your mode and starting place, but I'm firmly against having skill gems that some classes can use but others can't.

Perhaps each class could have a fairly meaningless but still useful ability. I'm thinking of the Assassin from D2 and how much I loved not having to carry keys around to open locked chests. Or D1's warrior repair and Sorcerer recharge abilities. I never felt that these abilities were enough to make the game unbalanced but they certainly added flavour to the class.

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Jyrex wrote:

As an example - A football player can run fast, and so can a baseball player or a basketball player. However a football player can effectively take down another player or punt a field goal where a baseball player can swing a bat and hit a home run or catch a small fly ball and a basketball player can jump high and dunk or sink a 3 pointer. They can all do something well but each has a specialized ability that only they can do.

I think this is a bad example. Any player could use these "skills". What separates them is how they are "built". How one is built is what makes the difference aka their "passive stats". :P

Also, I am for how classes are done now. No changes needed.

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Psychofrump wrote:

Perhaps each class could have a fairly meaningless but still useful ability. I'm thinking of the Assassin from D2 and how much I loved not having to carry keys around to open locked chests. Or D1's warrior repair and Sorcerer recharge abilities. I never felt that these abilities were enough to make the game unbalanced but they certainly added flavour to the class.

I didn't play D1 or D2, but I like this idea. Something small to help define a class doesn't take away from the game. It only adds customization that starts one level earlier than the passive skill tree.

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Jyrex wrote:

A class isn't truly defined by stats (a passive tree that doesn't exactly give them new abilities). They are defined by what they can do. As it stands now, everyone can essentially do the same thing as everyone else (visually but maybe not as effective in the very end, which is NOT the point).

The point is - the classes are defined by lore, by their history, even if we know very little of it actually. Then, the char on itself, is defined by the way the player sends him (not a bad idea to me).

Going back to the sportsmen comparision: take 3 boys, teach them soccer: one may be a good defender, one fits best as goalgetter, the third suites well as keeper... but they "live" on the same ground (soccer field / wraeclast) play the same game (soccer / POE) - even if this would not be the best possible solution, you may have a reason to freely exchange their positions, take the defender to keep the goal for example. (comparision: marauder using int skills)
You'll have some limits/trouble to solve, but that's the thrill on unusual builds ;)

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Psychofrump wrote:

I can see the point of classes being a little pointless, that you may as well pick your mode and starting place, but I'm firmly against having skill gems that some classes can use but others can't.

Ok, how about this. Gems that are linked to certain classes or attribute focuses (e.g. as discussed above, blue gems that only a Witch/Shadow/Templar can use and same for red and green), and then combine this with passive key nodes that allow the ability to use other classes' or stats' skill gems? If you really want to make a singer witch, grab the node that unlocks Marauder warcries or strength skills or whatever.

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Psychofrump wrote:

Perhaps each class could have a fairly meaningless but still useful ability. I'm thinking of the Assassin from D2 and how much I loved not having to carry keys around to open locked chests. Or D1's warrior repair and Sorcerer recharge abilities. I never felt that these abilities were enough to make the game unbalanced but they certainly added flavour to the class.

This has also been brought up before and is still a good idea - but I'm not sure what the mechanics would be for "flavor skills" in PoE. There's no charged skills on weapons, no repair, no trapped containers, etc. But maybe others can point out some good ideas here and I'm just not creative enough...

Well imo GGG just a bit overestimated their capabilities/didn't think about all consequences when they planned 6 classes from the start like "Ok, D2 had 5 classes on the launch let's make 6 for PoE"
Reasons?

a) those 6 classes are not clearly distinctive just per se (like D1 three archetypal classes)
b) They are not made distinctive by game mechanics.
Skills are shared for large extent not crafted for a given class only, skill tree is shared although after major changes chars now are not starting from the same spot so it's impossible to mimic the same passive choices by different classes like previously. Still even picking different classes you can end up with build looking and most importantly playing/feeling pretty much the same as some other class.
c) Artwork and animation is not making them distinctive also and probably won't ever do because animation demands a lot of time to create = it demands a lot of money, which GGG don't have now and won't have in the foreseeable future.
Blizzard can afford to make 5 classes and 2 genders because they have shitloads of $$ for animation guys, GGG does not.
d) lore and story is not here (afaik I didn't play PoE for like 3 months or so :P), it would help but it won't solve the issue, ARPGS are not about a story/lore after all...

So imo each class should be given meaningful trough-out the game dedicated bonus connected to that class characteristics and it should be hard/impossible to get via skills/items/passives by other classes.
Something like with classical CRPGs dwarfs' immunity to fear or something like that (of course within PoE theme/skillset).

I do agree with the OP that there needs to be some sort of definition between the 6 classes. But, that being said, I REALLLLLY like the passives how they are. I do think, however, it would be really cool to see some very rare, legendary skills drop for each class. They would be as rare as legendary items, and maybe not available till late game? This wouldnt destroy the current system in the slightest, and would just give each class a little bit of an edge. Plus, it adds to the whole itemization of the game. Lets be honest. We're all here for the loot!

Either that, or after the gem levels up to a certian point, each class has has its own attribute added to that skill. like after the gem hits lvl 10, duelist gets a 10% bonus to accuracy, mars get a 10% bonus to damage, witch get a 10% bonus as elemental dmg. Something like that.

I'd like finely crafted archetypical abilitys.

But realistically it's a major feature.


Templar-Healer/Holy----------->Healing/prevention/Sanctify
Support
Witch-Spellcaster/Curser------>Cast effeciency/effect
Range
Shadow-Assassin/Thief--------->Stealth and backstab
Dps
Marauder-Warrior/Berserker---->Burst and aoe damage
Tanking
Duelist-One on one fighter---->Single target
Dpstank
Ranger-Bowman/Survivalist----->Utility and range
Range


That's kinda how I see those.
To make it work, there needs to be serious contemplation on how. Each has it's own complexity that needs to be explored.
It will pigeonhole builds. It doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing if it's implemented expertly.
But it might.


Actually, I rather define it myself.
Even if I like archetypes, the starting position is an expression of such an archetype.

All of this doesn't make sense to me.

If every character can do everything, than pick the one you like and play the class you want. What is the problem with that?

If every class can't do everything, than obviously the classes are individuated at least somewhat, which means this isn't as large an issue as people think it is.


All GGG said is "here are 6 starting points on this web, do with them what you will."


This is the first time I have played a game where the player is given *nearly* total freedom on how to play the game... and people are complaining.

Here is an easy fix. If you want classes put in boxes and defined from the start... do it yourself. Play a Marauder and only use Melee skills, play a Ranger and use a bow. Play a Templar and use a staff. It really isn't that hard.

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Wittgenstein wrote:

All GGG said is "here are 6 starting points on this web, do with them what you will."

For me, this is the best, most interesting, aspect of PoE. If this aspect is gone, I'll probably stop playing this game.

I don't want a game where classes have mutually exclusive skills. If I did, I'd play diablo instead.

I don't want a classless system either. That's kind of bland.

I really like where it is right now. Each class has certain skills in their proximity that define their default styles. You can bleed into other classes, albeit at an efficiency cost. Given this cost, how much you want to bleed is up to you, and that's a really interesting proposition!