Defining one's class

First off, this is only my second post. I've been playing the closed beta after donating (wish I could donate more because I love the fact that a small company is so great with their community) about two weeks ago. I've played multiple characters (5 or 6), only reaching a max of lvl 21 or so.

I've played Torchlight, Torchlight 2 beta, and quite a bit of Diablo 3. I've also played a ton of D2. I'm not new to this type of game but I will say I'm very pleased by the way GGG has gone about putting together something new and inspiring such as the passive skill tree and the gems. Love the customization!

My main concern is the definition between the 6 classes. As it stands now the str, str/int, str/dex, int, int/dex and dex based classes don't really stand out from one another very much.

Sure they start in different areas on the passive skill tree, but that does not directly define what they are best at.

I'm taking from what they did in TL2 from the fact that each class gets their own abilities and on top of that there are slots in which to place spells which everyone can use (similar to the skill gems).

In order for each class to feel like their own we should have skills that are learned at specific levels or quests that are that class only. I'm not saying to make them more powerful than the skill gems because that would just take away from the creativity of the community. What I am saying is that each class will have the ability to use skills that no other class can.

Sure, depending on how you go about stats on the passive tree may limit you to what spells you can use, but that doesn't mean that if you spec'd a different way or used different gear you couldn't use those said spells.

Each class just feels like the other with a different skin. I just feel that each needs their own true niche with the audience to make us feel like we are playing that said class.

If someone still wants to play a bow wielding marauder so be it. They won't need to use the "marauder" abilities (unless they have some shouts that give stats or something). The marauder abilities would scale the same way as skill gems so they wouldn't be anymore powerful, only usable by the said class - marauder.

This would give definition to each class and not cripple the current system. If I wanna play a templar that actually works with the holy power instead of making undead like a witch and not using totems I think it should be available. If I wanna play a ranger that can headshot a mob where a shadow can't do the same I think it should be available. If I wanna create a witch and summon a horde of ghosts through a seance instead of summoning only zombies I think it should be available. If I wanna create a shadow to backstab (flicker strike but better) I think it should be available. If I wanna create a marauder and summon stone skin it should be available. If I wanna create a duelist and be able to parry attacks and also counter (Riposte) I should be able to.

It won't destroy the customizability. It will only add another dimension to it. It will also make us feel like we are playing the class we wanted to play without using all the same skills that anyone else could use if they went in a different path.

I mean this game is based on a lot of realistic measures compared to other games and I cannot see the possibility of a tiny shadow running around with a giant 2 handed sword doing the same thing as a beefy barbarian type dude.

Just a few ideas is all. Love the game, love the community and totally love the creators. I wish you guys the best, seriously. The big companies sold out hard and all we got are the people who love what they are doing (which are the companies like you GGG).

You have listed a lot of ARPGs but missed the one that is sort of a base for PoE's char system: Diablo (1). There you just

1) have some starter skill for classes (gem dropping from twilight strand's first zombie);

2) get different startting stat points (same for PoE, and location in the passive tree).

3) read spell tomes and learn magic (gems in PoE).


Talking about specialization, the cloasest you can get to it is the distance between some keystones and classes. If you want to feel specialized you gotta stick to the closest nodes in the tree and the skill set that feels 'right' to the char bio. As for an example, you can check Shadow's class page, where GGG listed some 'specific' skills for him.

I understand this. But this is far beyond D1. I don't think 'passives' should define a character as much as the abilities that class can do.

As an example - A football player can run fast, and so can a baseball player or a basketball player. However a football player can effectively take down another player or punt a field goal where a baseball player can swing a bat and hit a home run or catch a small fly ball and a basketball player can jump high and dunk or sink a 3 pointer. They can all do something well but each has a specialized ability that only they can do.

The passive skill tree is nice, but it doesn't allow one class to 'do' something another can't. Everything that another class may not be able to reach doesn't really change the fact that they can all do the same thing.

I'm not asking for a change, I'm suggesting an addition. This game is far beyond a game released in the early 90's. Why not take great ideas from the newer games and incorporate them in your own way? It's not hurting anything and will only improve the amount of players and builds. We can all have our crazy builds if we want, but if we want to play a beast 2 handed marauder we will be able to do it differently than a templar or some other class.

I just made a similar post in another thread, and I see that this is a common worry. I think about this every time that I pick up and subsequently quite PoE. Truth be told: the class system is not good, and they've been trying to make the classes more distinct since the start. They've done a good job working within the original framework that they set up, but the problem is that the system should be scrubbed and started anew. Small difference in passives amid a forest of them just isn't enough, especially when skills define a class, not passives.

In any case, there isn't anything we can do. It's their system, many people like it, and we don't have the right to barge in, call it bollocks, and storm out. I think we should just learn to accept that the game isn't for us (or perhaps you can get over it) and move on. The system isn't without merit, it's simply not what we would have preferred, style wise.

Please don't mess with this. Classes are a broad starting point, and some of us REALLY LIKE IT. I don't need tro be told how my class should play. Just give me a starting point and let me romp!
Herborist; I appreciate your maturity about this. It is unfortunate that you do not "feel" the development system, but it is refreshing that you understand a lot of people, like myself, love it. Kudos.

I feel this is a game where the player defines the class, not where the game defines the class for you. To me, that's the beauty of this game. I personally don't feel restricted, yet I can create my own unique builds that actually do work in higher difficulties.

Right now I'm taking my "Monk" through Merciless. She is a Ranger, specialized in Claws, ES, and Aura's. She has used a large portion of the Intelligence forest, and still doesn't even remotely share anything in common with my Witch (Dual Wand Spec'd Summoner).

This game, to me, starts you out as an empty slate with very little direction, you then must choose your own fate. It is up to you to create something beautiful. I have so many unique builds I want to try I don't even know where to begin.

Yes, the passive forest still needs work, and it will be worked on. Yes, the skills need more work, and they have plans to add hundreds more, so these are both moot points. Yea, it could be the simple fact that some people don't like this style, nothing wrong with that at all, however as I mentioned somewhere in another post, I feel a lot of these issues are cases of players letting themselves down.

Whether people stay with the game or not, I hope they enjoy their gaming no matter where it takes them! :)


EDIT: Glaring mistake in quote :P

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Intertwined wrote:

I feel this is a game where the player defines the class, not where the game defines the class for.

100% ack!

theres not a force to go the same pathes with different chars, its only an option. If your main route stays in the "corner" of your class starting point, you will have very different chars for each class. And, by doing this, you will automatically strengthen the "inherent" abilities of the choosen class.

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Mr_Cee wrote:

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Intertwined wrote:

I feel this is a game where the player defines the class, not where the game defines the class for.

100% ack!

theres not a force to go the same pathes with different chars, its only an option. If your main route stays in the "corner" of your class starting point, you will have very different chars for each class. And, by doing this, you will automatically strengthen the "inherent" abilities of the choosen class.

That's exactly right, and I guess that's what some people don't like about this game, but for me that's where the beauty of it all is! I enjoy not being forced into a specific role just because of a choice I made before I even started playing.

I think you guys overlooked part of what I said. I didn't suggest changing things, I suggested an addition. I also suggested nothing in which to force a player to play that certain way. I only asked for a set of abilities that only that class can use. Nothing more powerful than the skill gems, just something to set us apart from the other classes more so than just a different character model and starting point in the passive skill tree. This wouldn't take away from the creativity available. If you have any different ideas on how to separate the classes then please tell. But every class being able to do the same exact thing (skill wise) seems underwhelming when you look at the game as a whole.

Please keep an open mind before you shoot something down because you fear it 'may' hinder your creativity. I too love the ability to make decisions and do my own thing but if I have to choose a 'class' it makes sense that that class is different from the one next to it. Otherwise remove classes completely and let us decide what model, starting stats, position on the skill tree and the ability to name our own class. :)

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Jyrex wrote:

Otherwise remove classes completely and let us decide what model, starting stats, position on the skill tree and the ability to name our own class. :)

I think this is a good point. If the goal is for classes to be meaningless except for aesthetics and for the player to completely determine the class, then let us customize our class name and choose a model and which starting spot we want. I'd love to take the Shadow model, start it at the Witch spot and make a "Necromancer."

If the point is for the existing 6 archetypes to have some meaning in the game, then I'd love something like what the OP here is suggesting. Maybe just a small series of similar skills (no more than 3-5) for each class as they level. To take say the Marauder as an example - three shouts, one that buffs armor, one that buffs move and attack speed, one that buffs damage or whatever. Make them available at level 10/20/30 or upon beating Act 1/2/3. Just red gems that only the Marauder can equip. I hardly think anyone would feel compelled to use these compared to the available aura, totem, or other skill options, but it would add some flavor and differentiation to the classes.

Another idea that's been brought up before are skills that are only equipable by chars that use that stat - so red gems that can only be equipped by the Marauder, Templar, and Duelist for example and same for green and blue.