Any plans to improve map generation?

Been loving the PoE beta so far, and it has me rather hooked. Although, after spending a bit of time in the Torchlight 2 beta, it's struck me how dated some of the map features in this game feels.

The outdoor areas lack a sense of scale, everything feels like it's on the same level and it's rare that you run into any/many 'points of interest' while running around.

The indoor areas also feel a bit lacking - they do have some nice atmospheric features, they often feel a little claustrophobic and needlesly maze-like. I've found after running them dozens of times now, it's not so much 'fun explore the dungeon', but 'charge the maze to get to the end'. Many of the rooms feel/look the same and it just sort of becomes a blur.

The levels in Torchlight 2 feel big, encourage exploration - and have such a varied amount of detail/features/etc that I want to keep pushing to see what little bit of eye-candy pops up next.

Enemies also seem to lack a sense of scale, and feel as if they are all the same size (with only a few exceptions), and the boss fights feel a little uninspired. My first real boss fight in T2 had a very epic feeling to it - large enemy, re-spawning monsters, impressive attack effects, rumbling screen, cieling falling down - it had me on the move, mixing up my skills more than anything in PoE has had me doing so far.

I don't want to get into the casual/hardcore/customization/cartoony whatever debate - stripping all of that aside - I think it's hard to deny that T2 has some impressive maps, and ahving the same sense of scale/varation with PoE's art style would be amazing.

Some screen shots I took today.


and the screens are not doing the game justice - with the lighting effects in motion, it's really nice.

That's one way to boast about your invite ;)

Most maps in games are extremely simple... I think what is missing from POE are 'locations' within maps.

It significantly helps to place buildings that you can go into or around, and other structural landmarks... since in general there are only a few basic shapes a map can really take... the fundamental difference is not really the shape, but rather the types of things there are to explore between.

"stumbling upon" some sort of 'area within an area' is semi-rare still... albeit there are some good examples that are currently inhabited by bosses.

Areas have significantly been improved in the last few patches, with many more subtle things added in to break up the straight-forwardness. I expect this to continue for quite some time.

Yeah, the areas do exist, and there are some elements to the maps I really like.

The areas in the dungeons where it's ramps sort of leading down. The out-posts for the Bandits in Act 2, Merveil's new lair is nice, and the area leading up to Brutus.

Just wish more interesting elements like these were dropped in while wandering around, more variation in the height of terrain/etc.

Other elements like more objects you can interact with - opening/closing doors, switches for bridges, destructible walls.

Light sources that you can interact with - enter a dark cave, need to turn on a torch to show the way type thing.

I have been noticing a few improvements in the patch, hopefully they can take it even further. Just looking at the upcoming ARPGS - and seems like some of them are doing a better job at level generation than this game.

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kaniz wrote:

Just looking at the upcoming ARPGS - and seems like some of them are doing a better job at level generation than this game.

But they are less random then PoE and more static.
Lots of people like the randomness PoE gives.

I havn't spent that much time in T2 yet - but things were looking very random. However, I'd say even T1 has POE beat in terms of interest in levels it generates.

And while the dungeons are fairly random - I find the over-world isn't very random - I usually know exactly where to go to find the exit / entrance to the next area.

I just find that PoE feels very 'flat', and when running through outdoor araas most of them feel like a big open field with not much interest. The Terraces has some nice variation in terms of height - so it's not like their engine cant handle it.


It's just been very rare when running around in PoE that I've seen a bit of landscape that made me think 'ooh, I wonder what's over there' and detour off of my planned path to go check it out - where that's happened several times in T2 in only a few hours of playing.

A winding path up a snowy mountain to a temple with a chest to loot, hidden areas that don't show up on the mini map, dark hallways where I needed to light torches to see the way, an interesting statue out of the corner of my eye.

I think each level needs a few random "Set Pieces" that are a bit more hand-crafted that are then fit into the highly random parts around it.

I have been noticing a few nice tweaks here and there since the last patch. The core mechanics of the game are pretty solid and very satisfying to play, just a bit more interest in the world I'm running around in would be nice.

Also some mini/random events would be neat. An example that sort of made me smile

- Alter had a bunch of candles on it, none of them lit
- I kill the skeletons around it, one of the candle lights - then a new wave spawns
- I start thinking 'I wonder what happens once they all turn on....'

I continue clearing until the last wave, then a bigger spawn happens and a mini-boss and it was lots of fun. It wasn't even a quest of 'clear the enemies here' popping up - just a subtle visual clue in the change of environment that made me wonder 'whats next?'

Things like that help pull me into the game world and feel a little more immersed/involved in it than the nonstop barrage of enemies. Even simple things like a lever to drop a bridge, opening doors inside of dungeons, etc.

Didn't really realize how much these little things add to the feel of the game until I went from them being almost non existant, to them being there in abundance.

i don't think the size of mob makes a game good, Torchlight looks cartoonish , totally not my style

Did you play Diablo 3?, even there after playing beta i found all the "random" parts, it's still beta, when it's gonna be done you can complain all you want.


P.S. : if you like a game play but don't try and make other games look the same.

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nzrock wrote:

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kaniz wrote:

Just looking at the upcoming ARPGS - and seems like some of them are doing a better job at level generation than this game.

But they are less random then PoE and more static.
Lots of people like the randomness PoE gives.

Sorry thats wrong, POE Is not very random at all in terms of map generation. Really take a map like Old Fields or crossroads I can second guess precisely where the exit/s will be every time and every time its just a big'ol box rectangle shape surround by walls filled with monsters.

Theres no variation, no old buildings, no ruins to speak of, very little terrain variation (in elevation or type) basically everything Kaniz just touched on above...

I posted about this a while back and tbf GGG did say they are aware the maps are somewhat uninspired and plans are afoot to improve them, but that it wasn't a priority at this time, it was taking a back seat to OB basically. So dont expect any great changes anytime soon.

I seem to recall a discussion that the wp and entrance locations for a particular instance are always set to align with each other.

This is a design choice to allow players that are familiar with the instances to progress through them more quickly.

The completionist style player who wants to clear maps will still derive enjoyment from exploring the rest of the zone which is procedurally generated from the map seed.

I do support the idea that there be mini 'set-pieces' that can spawn at random in particular zones or tile sets. These really do add to the ambience and encourage players that rush through zones to actually explore a little more off the beaten path.

I have been extremely impressed at the amount of detail included in the map assets. Each patch, I take the time to stop and savour the immersive environment around me. With the new zoom functionality, it makes it an even more pleasurable experience. Bravo, GGG!

There are a huge number of assets in the game, which I am greatly impressed by (I was extremely disappointed by Hellgate:London. Now that was a game where you can literally say I've seen that already within the first 15 minutes of the game).

Think about the prison. I've run through the prison countless times.
Did you guys notice that there is sometimes a prisoner cell section?
Did you notice there is sometimes an officer barracks section?
Did you notice there is a mess hall?

The complexity of the map assets is amazing, and the engine does a fairly admirable job of stitching it all together into a seamless environment, in my opinion.