Any MMA fans?
" This is the problem, you're exactly demonstrating that people misuse the "martial art" label. Following your definition, any painter (art of painting) is just the ability in using a brush for whatever... Is Monet a painter? Yes he is, does he show is painting skills ? Yes for sure. Is Munch a painter? Yes he is, does he show is painting skills ? Oh it looks less capable Is Mondrian a painter? Yes he is, does he show is painting skills? Monochromatic squares ? You know what I mean...art is not only related to technical skills: how well you draw, how well you punch or kick. (Ofc I do know Mondrian and Munch are capable or figurative paintings like also Kandinsky and many others) There are tons of painters that can reproduce exactly masterpieces but they can't do anything as individual, as real artists. " I agree on the first part, but what is only for recreational purposes or sport can't be martial art, because there are no neither martial or art component, that's just fair sport fighting. There is no fairness in martial arts because when there is fairness nobody can say who will prevail, it's just a matter of luck or pure muscular strength (judo competitions with weight categories are a joke for martial arts ) I would take karate example ( I don't practice it) Karate is originated by the people of Okinawa (if I'm not wrong) who were invaded by Samurai, since it was forbidden by them to use any kind of weapons, they practiced bare hands techniques and the use of working tools as weapons to fight invaders. " I didn't mention muay thai anywhere, by the way, I admit I'm no expert in that but I'm pretty sure nobody practice it as a martial art because it is indeed a pretty famous fighting sport. " I don't judge myself closeminded, I just think there's a big difference between fighting sports and martial arts and whoever practice one of the two has to know it. I like also competitions and I wouldn't mind participating some judo or jujitsu match for fun, but I find more interesting practicing a martial arts, I guess it's a matter of tastes. " Well actually I didn't claim anything, I didn't mention what I practice, neither that is better than any other MA... However, I didn't mean to troll anyone, with my posts, so I'd like to avoid flames...I'm not hating anyone/anything here :) Ingame: Pwnladin or Jeziz Last edited by Hate on Apr 25, 2012, 12:30:26 PM
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Lets agree to have a diffrence in opinion.
Because if sport/competition orientated fighting arts are no Martial Arts than there are basicly no martial arts at all. Because the need to kill with your bare hands doesn't really exist anymore. Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
Hardcore to the bone. | |
" I've said martial arts are about life or death, I've never said they're about killing, even violence is not mandatory for a martial art. I know it's quite hard to figure out how something based on war and military forces of past can be still appropriate nowadays when we're "at peace" and this would be very long to explain and this is already going too OT. I'm not talking about self-defense, it is also about what you said earlier: respect, health...but it's more. I'm glad that there are people like you that can appreciate MMA as a practice like that, not just like a sport, just for the sake of competition. Ingame: Pwnladin or Jeziz Last edited by Hate on Apr 25, 2012, 2:14:24 PM
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Hate, I always like how topics move from one argument to another. I don't mind it being offtopic thats how dynamic a discussion can be ;)
I'd like to know how a MA has to be about life and death without any killing involved? Also martail arts in general (the way I see MA's) have evolved more in the past 50 years compared to the 2000 years before that. The reason why this evolution took place is because due to globalisation many forms of MA's came into contact. Competition (and in some cases no holds barred competition) has fueled this evolution. Not only diffrent forms of traditional MA's came into contact, also new idea's and new influances of what is concidered nowadays as new MA's crossed paths. A very good example of this is the fight between Helio Gracie and Masaiko Kimura: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPL2BFepgU Competition is a very effective way of showing what works and what doest work. (This is something that didn't happen much in traditional martial arts). Competition especialy mma/no holds barred fights are the closest reflection of real hand to hand combat in a life and death situation. So in my eyes the closest thing to real martial arts these days are the arts that focus on real (competition) fighting. Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. Hardcore to the bone. Last edited by Hellskin on Apr 25, 2012, 4:23:40 PM
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I really don't think an agreement can be made here lol. I don't think you are trolling. I don't think anyone is going to flame you for your POV, but I have never looked at MMA, our traditional MMA, as a fighting sport. It use to be about wrestling and punching, but then a man named Gracie came along using Brazilian Jiujitsu and revolutionized the industry bringing in the first MMA competition. MMA is definitely much more than just a fight sport and I will never see it as such.
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" You're right when you talk about MA's evolution. This a big point in what I think about MAs. text wall under the spoiler :D
Spoiler
To be about life or death w/o the killing.
As we all agree, the origin of MAs is, in general, war. Fortunately countries are not permanently at war and, even in past there were peace periods between wars. And this is important, MAs are not directly from wars, but they were and are developed at peace. During wars there was no need for MAs it's just a matter of good weapons and armor, technology and techniques. And this can be part of MAs but it's not enough. For example, in Japan when one of the big wars ended(don't ask me the name :D ), samurais lost their jobs being a peace period, so that is the point where many of them decided to use the only thing they could do, fighting, to make profit so they created sword (or more in general MAs) schools and started passing their knowledge. But that started becoming different, swords became lighter because nobody was wearing armor since war was over, so techniques changed, nobody was fighting anymore for big armies but maybe just defend against bandits and that brought changes too and so on. So original War techniques evolved in something more appropriate for the "new" society and since those ppl didn't have anymore to kill someone else for money they've started having the possibility to choose whether killing was necessary or not even if possible, to act as individuals. This is one of the reason why a lot of philosophy and zen stuff went in the MA world, at least in japan (I don't know much about other countries) You were right when you said there's no need to kill with bare hands ppl nowadays, this is because MA evolved and are still evolving, nobody ever taught me how to do that but I know that techniques that we practice, can be used to do serious damage because of their origin. This is another thing I wanted to explain with the painters example: even when some abstract painter (a real one) makes some minimal painting, every brush stroke carries all its path as an artist Hellskin, you told me there's no need to kill ppl with bare hands now and you were right, I say that for me there's no need to turn martial arts into fair competitions with rules because I found pointless to hurt ppl for the sake of entertaining Ingame: Pwnladin or Jeziz Last edited by Hate on Apr 25, 2012, 5:10:12 PM
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Just because you train for sport doesn't make any of the techniques less effective on the streets or a war zone's hand to hand combat. Guess I should say shouldn't since there are a lot of people out there training in some really badly made up stuff.
Winner of the First Ever Cut-Throat Server Test, and Winner of the First Ever Cut-Throat League Event!
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" The MMA aspects were incorporated into what I train precisely to increase its street effectiveness. I don't necessarily agree with it 100% from a personal functional level, but it's hard for me to deny that what little I have picked up would be useful in a real fight. ...probably more useful than the sword techniques, but they're still cool as shit, so I'm not complaining. ^_^ Warhammer 40k Inquisitor: where shotgunning is not only not nerfed, it is deeply encouraged. Dogma > Souls, but they're masterworks all. You can't go wrong. I was right about PoE2 needing to be a separate, new game. It was really obvious. Last edited by Foreverhappychan on Apr 25, 2012, 6:36:21 PM
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If you carry a sword with you all the time I doubt anyone would ever want to fight you ^ ^
Winner of the First Ever Cut-Throat Server Test, and Winner of the First Ever Cut-Throat League Event!
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" I dunno, some people carry guns all the time over in the US, I believe, and they still get into conflicts. ;) Seriously, though, the stricter gun laws here in Australia have resulted in a higher incident of melee-based assault and robbery! Every month or two there's a report on the news of some crazies holding up a pub or a store with a katana. It's sadly amusing. Not that fully-sharpened katanas aren't illegal here as well, but they're a bit harder to conceal. ;) Warhammer 40k Inquisitor: where shotgunning is not only not nerfed, it is deeply encouraged.
Dogma > Souls, but they're masterworks all. You can't go wrong. I was right about PoE2 needing to be a separate, new game. It was really obvious. |
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