How do you nerf melee (attack speed) and then give Ranged 3 free totems and no speed nerfs?

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MaxGor31 wrote:
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sidtherat wrote:

Anyone claiming that melee is fine should complete this sentence: playing melee provides me unique ability to........

not be shitty spell casting meta-slave wanker or some ranged bow fucking pussy or some save space summoner but being instead a true warrior that dominates not "due to" but "in spite of".

Ever thought of switching to a horse-drawn carriage? You will probably have to move and it's a lot of hassle but the whole thing will probably improve your health in the long run and you'll feel manly as hell.

Sheesh, this is why we can't have nice things.
Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.

◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]►
◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]►
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DarkJen wrote:
But but, you can now fight melee with a bows! xD


yeah I laughed hard on that one lol
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Baharoth15 wrote:
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sidtherat wrote:
It is simple: people that play games to be rewarded (as in - to achieve something rather to challenge themselves) must be majority. So you cater to them giving them free power. They are happy, they spend money.

Going into detailed mechanics is going to be removed so i wont. But it is deliberate.


Name me one person that played the game for more than 1 month that claims that bows needed any sort of buffs..

Melee meanwhile.. yep. Garbage playstyle with no redeeming qualities (tankiness is NOT melee quality. Wander can use fortify, armour and other stuff while clearing 2 screens at once not being in danger for entire map.

Anyone claiming that melee is fine should complete this sentence: playing melee provides me unique ability to........


Honestly your first paragraph pretty much shows the core of the problem.

You think the "gieb free" players are the majority, might be I can't really tell, only GGG knows. They surely are part of the community. And for this part of the community your notion is probably true. If all you care about is the reward at the end and do everything possible to get it as easy and fast as possible then there is no point in playing melee. If your running the current fotm with 20 million dps you will get your rewards much faster than you ever could playing melee and there is very little GGG can do about it. As mentioned multiple times during multiple topics melee can't possible compare to ranged when it comes to clear speed, that's a simple fact.

The point you either miss or ignore on purpose is the fact that, even if the "gieb free" part of the community made up the majority (and I honestly don't think that's the case, I expect it to be pretty much 50/50), there would still be a minority that actually likes a challenge. People that enjoy playing the game because it's fun to play it, not because of the rewards that might come at the end. And for this part of the community melee is far from useless.

You want me to complete your sentence? Fine:

"playing melee provides me unique ability to play melee"

Probably doesn't make much sense to you but it sure does for me and probably a whole lot of other people as well. Even if melee had nothing else going for it, and on my gear level it sure has, I would still play it because I want to play it. I might even play it because it's bad to have a challenge. Or I just play it because I like it and I don't even know that I could also play a 20 million dps ranged character. The latter probably applies to the ~90% of the poe playing community that doesn't follow the forums/reddit.

Also from my experience melee is much better at my gear level than ranged. If I compare the clear speed between my Jugg/Chieftain and my Trapper/ED Con caster there is no comparison. The melees win by a mile in terms of speed and are safer. The thing here is, if your dps isn't high enough to just delete all content and you have to actively engage with it then range loses a lot of it's strength. Instead of only moving forward in a tier 16 while playing melee I have to move backwards to maintain distance to mobs. Instead of dishing out dps face to face against bosses I have to run around and dodge. And I honestly don't think this can be done via caster, maybe if you can make some 12k ES tank but otherwise?

The core problem is that the POE community is split in two. For one half the game is to slow and difficult, for the other it's too fast and easy. I believe GGG is trying to satisfy both. That's why all that massive powercreep is created. They give the "too slow" faction builds that are so ridiculously overpowered that any content can be done in no time. While at the other hand they leave other skills on a normal level so that people from the too fast faction can actually engage with the content and play the game at their pace.

And that's why melee isn't useless. There is an audience for it. You are clearly not part of this audience so I understand where you are coming from. But please try to understand that not everyone here is playing the game with the same mentality and for the same reasons as you do.


thank you for a serious, detailed reply, thank you

few comments: first, your assumption about me not being 'the audience' you made at the end is 100% false. i play pretty much melee-only, with occasional strides into other genres. mainly to utilize insane gear pieces i have rotting in my stash. i try to avoid meta (but summoners this league are so idiotic that even trying hard to mess it i couldnt, simply not possible to make weak summoner)

and given that ive played with both top-end gear, mainstream-gear (like 500% ipd starforge) and garbage-gear i can state with absolute certainity - there is NO gear level that makes melee comparable. mostly because that you simply cannot make low-damage build nowadays, esp ranged when you get all your damage from skill gems and Herald of Ice + Barrage setup. bows like Infractrem are 1c and these are enough for endgame. I've made Infractrem end-game viable build in 1.3!! it was possible back then, it is trivial today

wanders - the same story. you just CANNOT fail. Ive made PHYS only FRENZY wander GLADIATOR with self-crafted wand (you can make it with Moonsorrow as a budget option if you want 100% budget) that murders entire game and has more than solid defences. how much edgier you can get?
right now the gear is pretty good (armour waits for me completing my +chain/dexstacking bow) but it did work with junk 6l corrupted chest as well
Spoiler


with melee.. you stack attack speed. thats the most important stat as you need it to move around (and you HAVE to move with melee). this alone makes 90% of weapon bases thrash. jewelled foils or bust. thats abhorrent.

if you dont get enough attack speed - youll die swarmed by some random bs. youll be slow. so you stack it. but if you do it - if you are on crap gear - youll lack raw damage or life or both. it is very difficult to get enough of both 3 on a budget. then there is also coverage (that you simply obtain by picking proper skill, you wont get coverage with Cleave, no matter what you do)

the biggest difference is with crap gear bossing - melee has it the hard way as it dies just as easily but it has to BE there to deal damage and it is much harder to play say shaper with low dps as youll simply end up not being able to deal damage thanks to the cold-dot-areas.


i understand challenge, i understand that you cannot have all things equal, but it is too much. Dual Strike budget build vs Tornado Shot budget build. there are not even from the same game. and there is the obsolete late-90's strike targeting melee uses in 2019..
Ill just drop this thought here,
Melee has more damage than bows. Having Barrage + clear setup is super clunky to me at least. Average bow player dies like a fly.
Last edited by TorsteinTheFallen on Nov 21, 2019, 11:38:22 AM
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sidtherat wrote:


thank you for a serious, detailed reply, thank you

few comments: first, your assumption about me not being 'the audience' you made at the end is 100% false. i play pretty much melee-only, with occasional strides into other genres. mainly to utilize insane gear pieces i have rotting in my stash. i try to avoid meta (but summoners this league are so idiotic that even trying hard to mess it i couldnt, simply not possible to make weak summoner)

and given that ive played with both top-end gear, mainstream-gear (like 500% ipd starforge) and garbage-gear i can state with absolute certainity - there is NO gear level that makes melee comparable. mostly because that you simply cannot make low-damage build nowadays, esp ranged when you get all your damage from skill gems and Herald of Ice + Barrage setup. bows like Infractrem are 1c and these are enough for endgame. I've made Infractrem end-game viable build in 1.3!! it was possible back then, it is trivial today

wanders - the same story. you just CANNOT fail. Ive made PHYS only FRENZY wander GLADIATOR with self-crafted wand (you can make it with Moonsorrow as a budget option if you want 100% budget) that murders entire game and has more than solid defences. how much edgier you can get?
right now the gear is pretty good (armour waits for me completing my +chain/dexstacking bow) but it did work with junk 6l corrupted chest as well
Spoiler


with melee.. you stack attack speed. thats the most important stat as you need it to move around (and you HAVE to move with melee). this alone makes 90% of weapon bases thrash. jewelled foils or bust. thats abhorrent.

if you dont get enough attack speed - youll die swarmed by some random bs. youll be slow. so you stack it. but if you do it - if you are on crap gear - youll lack raw damage or life or both. it is very difficult to get enough of both 3 on a budget. then there is also coverage (that you simply obtain by picking proper skill, you wont get coverage with Cleave, no matter what you do)

the biggest difference is with crap gear bossing - melee has it the hard way as it dies just as easily but it has to BE there to deal damage and it is much harder to play say shaper with low dps as youll simply end up not being able to deal damage thanks to the cold-dot-areas.


i understand challenge, i understand that you cannot have all things equal, but it is too much. Dual Strike budget build vs Tornado Shot budget build. there are not even from the same game. and there is the obsolete late-90's strike targeting melee uses in 2019..


Thanks for the good response, i appreciate it.

There isn't much i can reply unfortunately. You play much longer than i do and have probably far more experience than me, if this experience taught you that melee is always inferior then well, i can't really argue against that.

All i can say is that for me melee worked best so far. I tried several range chars, some of them even somewhat meta, and non of them cut it, like not at all. You can take a look at my chars if you want, maybe my builds are just outright bad, maybe i picked the wrong builds, i don't know. If you have a guide to one of the builds you mentioned that can easily delete all content with no budget i'd love to have a link to those, i might give those builds a try if i can scrape the gear together.

So far i've done pretty much all content, uber elder is the only thing missing and i am fairly sure he is going to fall this weekend, and i did all this with my melee builds, mostly Jugg and Chieftain. I am not dying because i get swarmed by random BS, the BS is usually dead about 1 or 2 seconds after i leapslamed into the middle. My Jugg leveled from 94 to 95 deathless doing only depth 300 Delve cities and Guardian maps. I can't even begin to imagine doing that with any sort of caster build going by my experience so far.

I also never had any issues with bossing, in fact here as well i find melee easier. Shaper is only dangerous when he shoots his balls, he can't do that while i am in his face. And the Guardians don't have enough damage to even make me move unless i roll several damage mods. I did Guardians with my casters as well and i managed, but it was a pain in the ass to say the least.

So far the only real obstacle i had is uber elder. I guess i could have gone and just made a summoner to kill him afk with no effort but instead i wasted 6 or 7 fragment sets trying to kill him, so far to no avail. This weekend i might waste another 3 or 4 sets but i'll get him. And once he is dead i have my reward, he doesn't even have to drop anything, that's entirely irrelevant for me. Overcoming the challenge is what makes this game fun for me.

It's true that Dual Strike and Tornado Shot builds aren't even the same game, but as i said, i think that's the point. I can't think of any other way to satisfy two audiences who want completely different things.
Last edited by Baharoth15 on Nov 21, 2019, 12:56:19 PM
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Ill just drop this thought here,
Melee has more damage than bows. Having Barrage + clear setup is super clunky to me at least. Average bow player dies like a fly.


So does the average melee, the diifference is melee dies 8 times for every 1 time a ranged/spell build does because of that ~80% more damage incoming when you have to get close to a pack or boss before you can do any damage.

You say melee does more damage... not sure how you arrive at that, when a bow character can obliterate 2 screens safely and a melee has to spend time not doing any damage and get to the mobs before it can deal a single point. melee would need a lot more than 60-80% higher damage effectiveness on the skill gems to do more damage over the same time. And it would still be far less survivable doing it.

I made a Bow puncture build this league... it does better more effective and safer bleed damage than the most purpose built melee bleed focused build could ever hope to do. it also cleared screens at a time with automated shoulder cannon and TS in the other 6L it had as many HP as any average melee (6k) it had fortify (champ) it did great single target (puncture and massive bleed). it did easily more DPS than any melee possibly could and it did it with far fewer incoming damage threats it felt safer and more tanky because it took almost no "6 different hits from a blue pack that feel like a one shot" one shots that are not technically one shots.

It even got to fully use both Sword and Axe clusters that have bleed stuff on them: meaning it actually GOT BETTER USE OF MELEE BLEED PASSIVES THAN A MELEE COULD. Literally the bow has bow bleed passives and all the melee bleed passives because of Lioneyes fall jewel. This is all ignoring the fact that a Bow bleed build has the inherent and massive advantage of enemies needing to run TO YOU while they bleed for extra damage, which gives it a mechanical advantage that melee can never have.

Don't tell me melee does more DPS because it has higher damage effectiveness or slightly more flat dmg on two handed weapon bases. Thats "on paper" damage that doesn't actually compensate for needing to travel across the screen to deliver it.
"only 10% of players care about melee" - Aesop's Fox if he was a GGG dev
"when you die in this game, typically you're getting one shot, you're dieing in one frame; almost always" -Ben_
Last edited by alhazred70 on Nov 21, 2019, 1:08:02 PM
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Ill just drop this thought here,
Melee has more damage than bows. Having Barrage + clear setup is super clunky to me at least. Average bow player dies like a fly.



The mere fact that UElder was killed at level 36 by somebody already makes you wrong.



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alhazred70 wrote:
it had as many HP as any average melee (6k)

Stop right there.
6k buffer might be a lvl 80 melee with trash gear or who built full glass canon, or just very poorly built.

But apart from that ... no.



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alhazred70 wrote:
Don't tell me melee does more DPS because it has higher damage effectiveness or slightly more flat dmg on two handed weapon bases. Thats "on paper" damage that doesn't actually compensate for needing to travel across the screen to deliver it.

That I agree with though, of course.

SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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Fruz wrote:
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Ill just drop this thought here,
Melee has more damage than bows. Having Barrage + clear setup is super clunky to me at least. Average bow player dies like a fly.



The mere fact that UElder was killed at level 36 by somebody already makes you wrong.


What you said has nothing to do with what i said.
It has everything to do with what you said, UElder is the biggest dps check the game has to offer.
And it was taken down by a bow build at level 36.


It tells everything there needs to know about bow potential dps, period.

Average bow build only dies like a fly if you don't build it properly by the way.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
"
Ill just drop this thought here,
Melee has more damage than bows. Having Barrage + clear setup is super clunky to me at least. Average bow player dies like a fly.


Lol no idea what bow builds you play but you can build bows to be UNTOUCHABLE in dps - melee has zero chance to reach that wether single target nor screen clearing ability. Your post is just flat out wrong.

Please check Blght delve ladder and tell me how many melee builds you see at the first 3 pages.

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