youre doing it again [Removed by Support]

Im fine with and am definitely FOR balancing skills or even meta builds (such as summoners now), but you cant really balance the range of all possible builds in PoE.

doing so would require enumeration of all builds in the first place, which is a gargantuan task even for a supercomputer.

so again, there is no way to balance all builds in poe without severely dumbing down systems and unique interactions, as well as imposing artificial caps.

"

grepman wrote:

"

"

grepman wrote:

diablo 3/4 are the latter route. attack and defense, simple stats, caps on things like movespeed and very generic stat systems.

Diablo 4 I dunno, it seems like they may be dumbing it down more. But Diablo 3 isn't like that. Your damage is an attack range and your speed based on the weapons APS.

Your defense is a base reduction from your armor, then more reuctions based on your gear, and if you block that shaves off an amount of damage. You have to manage block chance and and the strength of it, which is pretty sweet.

The stats are simpler than PoE's but compared to a majority of games has a fair amount of depth. And they don't cap anything. There's diminishing returns on damage based stats like resource cost and cooldown reduction, but not on things like move speed. If you build a character for speed clearing you can bomb through shit.

I dont know about RoS since I refused to pay another 60 bucks for a game I already bought for 60 and was an utter disappointment,

but in vanilla it was so easy to predict the gearing choices that the range was easily constructed

life
main stat
crit
attack speed

and weapon damage on the weapon of course. even for spells.

think of all possible combinations of builds and items, then think how more condensed and easier-to-predict it is in d3 than in poe. there are interactions in poe the devs many times dont even think about that come out through player experimenting and theorycrafting. that is a cool thing to me, and again, one of the main reasons I'm still playing PoE.

Yeah I know, I mentioned it was simpler than PoE. You've missed a ton that's changed not playing since RoS though.

When RoS first came out it was great, first major patch added grifts and buffed the shit out of sets, ruined the game. Later they added LoN a ring pair that gave you comparable damage to a set if you didn't have a set on, game became decent again. They kept patching stuff, buffing sets, and worsening the game for years after.

Then they buffed LoN finally to make it comparable to the current set power. Two seasons later added LoD, a legendary gem that gave you a bonus for every legendary equipped if you didn't have a set on, doubled for ancients, at max level it was the exact same bonus as wearing full ancients with LoN, game became great again.

Now there's hundreds of legendaries with unique effects and special affixes (those are different from legendary affixes), you have 13 equipment slots, and three spaces for legendary gems, then cube powers, and your skills and runes. I'm sure it won't be long until they add legendary helmet gems too.

A good amount of your choices are still spelled out for you if you want to play a specific skill, but every game is like that. There's a really good amount of depth to the character building now. It's not extremely far from PoE.

"

grepman wrote:

I didnt say it was the passive tree. It's everything- from item affixes to ascendancies to jewels to skillgems. the possibilities are huge and is one of the reasons Im personally still playing the game. theorycrafting without pob is one of the best things PoE has to offer.

I don't use PoB either, I find it just ... boring.
You don't experiment anymore, I wish GGG never gave enough information to reach the point where PoB could be made.

Regarding power disparity, it has been amplified by power creep, ridiculously ... if it wasn't for the power creep there is in the game right now, it surely would be much, much more acceptable.

"

Boem wrote:

You know, the thing snorkle hinted at in his second post in his thread.
He said "stupid" in relation to an item and now its replaced by "removed by support" which can be filled in by any bystander with whatever his mind fancy's happened.

ya, you get it mate, thats the thing that bugged me the most. I had made a thread and purposely not made it seem super negative, I had a tongue in cheek joke at the end of it about if they were sober when they were adding the new items, they deleted that... ok, if they wanna be that uptight about something that was so obviously a playful joke then whatever, i dont care. But the thread was a well humoured and fairly reserved thread... and then they delete the term 'stupid' leaving a massive removed by support.

Now that sets the tone for the entire thread, before you even come in here it looks like ive said "youre doing it again YOU FKING BLEEP BLEEP BUNCH OF BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEPS USELESS BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP", and thats not at all how the thread was posted, not even remotely.

Now I care to a certain degree about what you all think of me, ill be real not a great deal but to some extent, I care more about the tone of the forum than I do what you guys think of me, and this now looks like something that brings the tone of the forum down to what? an aggressive ranty sort of level? it wasnt that kind of post at all.

More to the point, a dev now coming to the forum and reading it will not know what was censored, but will presume i was attacking them in a cruel way. so this now actually conjures an impression of hostility from the community towards them from this specific post where there was none at all, far from it.




look, my mrs is getting back from america today, been tidying up the house and getting all the christmas decorations etc done before she arrives, had a lot on, it was super late at night and I was tired, I made a post, the word stupid gets deleted from the title which to me was just ridiculous and it just tilted me, like fuck this bruv i aint having it, that is bullshit, so I reacted the way I did. If they did the same thing on another day and i wasnt tired i probably wouldnt have said anything. but it is what it is.








anyway, the point of the thread was the actual discussion on this subject. 2 ideas I reject:



the idea that the game is what it is and therefor we shouldnt criticise we should either play it or uninstall. not gonna go into it, just flat out reject that idea, the fact this is a feedback forum says it all tbh.



second is that they need this power creep to sell the game and keep the money coming in. I dont think they do, at all, yes some, but not like this, not these edge cases.

when they added shaper items they came with 40% extra phys as ele, that you could stack up to something insane like 120% through 3 or 4 affixes. bonkers. They then had to go back and fix that because it was terrible for build diversity, terrible for power creep, just a terrible thing.

If that mod had not been added do we honestly think they would have had less players for that expansion? had less players, kept less players, made less money? I dont, i think thats utter nonsense. I think it wouldnt have effected their numbers for that release at all if that 1 mod had not existed or had existed with more reasonable values. they didnt need that to make money, i completely reject the idea that mod made them any extra money at all.

Now when they nerfed it, when they took it out... the salt was real. "F U GGG U KILLED MELEE OMG" i heard it over and over and over, there was some major bad vibes that came with nerfing that mod. I dont think adding it made them any money at all, i dont buy that for a second. I think removing it, which they had to do because it was stupidly broken, probably lost them a small amount of money from some very upset people. Maybe an insignificant amount, but certainly vastly more than adding the mod may have made them.



People here are asking what tailwind mod is this dude talking about? what is he even referencing here? Ppl dont even know, no one was on the fence and is now oh, tailwind on my boots? ok im gonna support the game, I wasnt before, but now i am, i was gonna miss the league but now im coming just for that.

I dont buy it for 1 minute. look how much jonathan talks about over the top action speed etc, people move too fast, attack and cast too fast, its terrible for performance, its looks absolutely stupid, it shouldnt be happening. So lets just let ppl now have tailwind too? really? come on man, so unnecessary.




the truth is look at mr llama, look at quin, these people who have not been in the devoted poe ranks since day 1 open beta, they think it looks stupid. Its the thing they like least about the game, how ridiculous it all gets. This power creep, i dont just reject the idea that its selling the game, i think its putting off as big a part of the arpg audience as its exciting.

I like being able to farm fast, in certain situations, to a certain extent, in games like d3 you can fly around like a crazy person in torment 16 rifts farming materials etc. But in the proper endgame content, in the really deep dive stuff where ur pushing to the higher tiers of farming its slow, and people are fine with it, they love it, i love it.

you need power creep, but surely by now the game needs to be identifying really problem areas like speed, ridiculous damage scalers, and filtering them out of the creep. we dont need items with stats that will be giving us 9 links in poe2, we dont need auras coming with no reserve cost as a single prefix on your gear, and we really shouldnt be getting ascendacies on crit.

this doesnt have to happen for the game to be a success.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

anyway, the point of the thread was the actual discussion on this subject. 2 ideas I reject:



the idea that the game is what it is and therefor we shouldnt criticise we should either play it or uninstall. not gonna go into it, just flat out reject that idea, the fact this is a feedback forum says it all tbh.



second is that they need this power creep to sell the game and keep the money coming in. I dont think they do, at all, yes some, but not like this, not these edge cases.

when they added shaper items they came with 40% extra phys as ele, that you could stack up to something insane like 120% through 3 or 4 affixes. bonkers. They then had to go back and fix that because it was terrible for build diversity, terrible for power creep, just a terrible thing.

If that mod had not been added do we honestly think they would have had less players for that expansion? had less players, kept less players, made less money? I dont, i think thats utter nonsense. I think it wouldnt have effected their numbers for that release at all if that 1 mod had not existed or had existed with more reasonable values. they didnt need that to make money, i completely reject the idea that mod made them any extra money at all.

Now when they nerfed it, when they took it out... the salt was real. "F U GGG U KILLED MELEE OMG" i heard it over and over and over, there was some major bad vibes that came with nerfing that mod. I dont think adding it made them any money at all, i dont buy that for a second. I think removing it, which they had to do because it was stupidly broken, probably lost them a small amount of money from some very upset people. Maybe an insignificant amount, but certainly vastly more than adding the mod may have made them.



People here are asking what tailwind mod is this dude talking about? what is he even referencing here? Ppl dont even know, no one was on the fence and is now oh, tailwind on my boots? ok im gonna support the game, I wasnt before, but now i am, i was gonna miss the league but now im coming just for that.

I dont buy it for 1 minute. look how much jonathan talks about over the top action speed etc, people move too fast, attack and cast too fast, its terrible for performance, its looks absolutely stupid, it shouldnt be happening. So lets just let ppl now have tailwind too? really? come on man, so unnecessary.




the truth is look at mr llama, look at quin, these people who have not been in the devoted poe ranks since day 1 open beta, they think it looks stupid. Its the thing they like least about the game, how ridiculous it all gets. This power creep, i dont just reject the idea that its selling the game, i think its putting off as big a part of the arpg audience as its exciting.

I like being able to farm fast, in certain situations, to a certain extent, in games like d3 you can fly around like a crazy person in torment 16 rifts farming materials etc. But in the proper endgame content, in the really deep dive stuff where ur pushing to the higher tiers of farming its slow, and people are fine with it, they love it, i love it.

you need power creep, but surely by now the game needs to be identifying really problem areas like speed, ridiculous damage scalers, and filtering them out of the creep. we dont need items with stats that will be giving us 9 links in poe2, we dont need auras coming with no reserve cost as a single prefix on your gear, and we really shouldnt be getting ascendacies on crit.

this doesnt have to happen for the game to be a success.

You got it. I reject the idea that they had to devalue ascendancies themselves by putting them on items in order to get people to play.

GGG believes adding new incredibly expensive reach goals in crafting mirror-tier rares is necessary to keep some group of high-spenders coming back each league. That those folks will want to return in order to craft even MORE godly boots or whatever, now that an additional godly affix exists (regardless of how tough it is to get).

I just don't know how true any of that really is, and whether those folks might not be better served with more challenging content or less powercreep so the game isn't so easy for them, or smoother difficulty progression or more sane speeds. But GGG has opted for the strategy of merely adding new tiers of stuff for them to farm for.

yeah, i strongly suspect its not really bringing them much at all from those kind of people, tho we have to presume thats what theyre thinking right?



heres an important thing with items, I believe anyway, you get the item to do the thing, right? Im gonna make a thread about this when I get time, but it touches on something neon said about not adding t17+ maps etc to facilitate a harder game because then they need new tiers of items and affixes etc...

why? If I have to play the top tier of content to get the top tier of gear, what do I need the top tier of gear to achieve? a given level of power allowing me to achieve something is the biggest draw to pursue that power. It takes an absurdly long time farming a tier of content before u can get really good items that make the most of that tiers mods. If im already mass farming that content then i dont need those mods to do that content, im farming for gear with those mods to get better in order to be able to do something beyond this tier... but theres nothing beyond at that point.

this is partly why that whole high end economy in standard fell apart, why most of those players just quit the game. They made all this amazing gear, and it was lightyears beyond anything they needed, then they released new mods which invalidated the only thing their gear actually achieved, prestige. so most of them just said u know what, fuck this, and they quit the game. A lot of those big wealth ppl in standard play leagues, make a shit ton of currency in the firs few weeks and just leave the game, come back for the next league. they like having the money to craft but theres 2 sides to crafting, being able to afford it but also having a reason to do it, theres no content that gives a reason to have even good gear, you can beat everything in rags right now, so its all just about the brag rights that u got the best thing, and theres no incentive to make the best thing when itll be the second best thing within a 6 months thanks to even more mods and ur actually not even gonna use that item in that time frame.


futher ramblings tldr etc etc...










I felt like there was a lot of truth in ur post when u were upset with things. i dont think u needed to apologise it was valid stuff. I like the new gem system, i love a lot of the new things coming, im greatly encouraged by what neon and the guys have said regarding deleting bosses in 1 second etc. I think poe 2 will be great for the game, but that doesnt mean there isnt some stuff like this where theres some valid criticisms to be made.

snorkle, poes main progression been fucked. it doesn't help the new meta shit is braindead, you don't even need a crafted weapon for a summoner, just gems and 4 link. but the progression been fucked way before that.

you can say for bossing deep and deep delves there still some relevancy, but there things get very narrow so you want the max 'don't get hit' or jugg reduction build. so you don't really need super great items, you just need your build functioning.

"

Synopse wrote:

The full quote delivers the context of the thread where it was made and it is obvious that things heated up alot, and more important, they are willing to talk with the people having concerns.

You can't be that naive?

1. Moderators and community managers are employees who receive salary for their work - time they spend on something at work is the time GGG paid for.
2. People who reply to player's email are the same people who do censorship on forum.
3. "send us an email at support@grindinggear.com and a senior staff member will be happy to discuss this privately with you" means that you will receive copy-pasted emails containing common phrases and claiming moderator was right, until you gave up after you understood how useless this "discussion" is.
4. Have you ever heard about one case when GGG admitted that moderator was wrong and restored original version of the post edited by that moderator?
5. Have you ever heard about one case of negative consequences for moderator because of his/her incorrect actions against player (i.e. false interpretation of rules to censor player's opinion)?

No real responsibility for moderators over their incorrect usage of moderator permissions against players <-- GGG don't find it as an issue <-- GGG won't put effort into investigating of such cases <-- such discussions/conversations over incorrect actions of moderators are useless.

"

DivineChampion wrote:

Spoiler

"

Synopse wrote:

The full quote delivers the context of the thread where it was made and it is obvious that things heated up alot, and more important, they are willing to talk with the people having concerns.

You can't be that naive?

1. Moderators and community managers are employees who receive salary for their work - time they spend on something at work is the time GGG paid for.
2. People who reply to player's email are the same people who do censorship on forum.
3. "send us an email at support@grindinggear.com and a senior staff member will be happy to discuss this privately with you" means that you will receive copy-pasted emails containing common phrases and claiming moderator was right, until you gave up after you understood how useless this "discussion" is.
4. Have you ever heard about one case when GGG admitted that moderator was wrong and restored original version of the post edited by that moderator?
5. Have you ever heard about one case of negative consequences for moderator because of his/her incorrect actions against player (i.e. false interpretation of rules to censor player's opinion)?

No real responsibility for moderators over their incorrect usage of moderator permissions against players <-- GGG don't find it as an issue <-- GGG won't put effort into investigating of such cases <-- such discussions/conversations over incorrect actions of moderators are useless.

You maybe want to start with looking up how professional conflict management and communication management works.

This is a company's forum. Of course they can house rule because they own it. Of course you may like it or not. It is up to you.

I have no doubt that GGG is not willing to accept that the behavior of their mods leads to any reputational harm, because this would have a direct impact on how GGG earns money.

And btw. how many forums do you know doing it exactly like you are claiming it should be? Any prominent example?

However, we can agree that we disagree. Have a nice day.

With what we've been shown, it's OBVIOUSLY not stopping in PoE 1 (anything before 4.0) but did you guys watch the PoE 2 gameplay? It was taking the devs and streamers several minutes to kill bosses. I will agree though that Tailwind on crit is absolutely ridiculous. Worse than Onslaught on boots from Synthesis, but it's obviously being addressed in PoE 2. We're unfortunately just gonna have to be patient.