POE.trade is an auction house
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Spoiler
yeah, but this is not a good thing. You wouldn't know about drop rates etc. All this data would be hidden by GGG. " It would go against "need to be online for trade". " Rather untradeable - I wouldn't want to sell Headhunter for tab full of junk I wouldn't have any use for. " It removes the need to be in game in the first place. For me it would overcomplicate a simple system. What for? To make offline trades using dedicated bank characters/accounts? isn't that crossing a line? Enforcing barter rare item for rare item would entirely kill the trade, this is why people invented money (or orbs in PoE). But at the end it does not matter what me or you think about trade system.[/quote] Well its clear our points of view of an ARPG differs vastly, you see every item as: this is worth x ex or y chaos. While i see items as: this would be good for my character or this is useless for my character. Basically you love trading valuable pixels, while i love trading for power to my character. In my point of view you would only trade for things that improve your character, and as you said there is no point for you into trading your item for a bunch of useless items for you, and that`s not the point, you would try to trade your item for something that your character would use, otherwise you would simple not trade. My opinion is that players should be focused on progressing their character and killing shit, not accumulating pixels. Currency should stop being currency and start becoming what it`s true function: craft your desirable item. If they were only to be simple currency might as well add gold to the game. Last edited by Mortyx on Nov 21, 2019, 12:19:35 PM
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" You're missing the point that it is way easier to sell your item for orbs, and use this orbs to buy fossils, craft the gear, if it is not what you need, you can sell the gear you crafted for even more orbs than you invested in buying fossils. Item->orbs->fossils->craft item->more orbs->more fossils->more crafting I don't need to buy gear for myself most of the time - because I can sell items I don't need, get orbs/fossils to craft my own gear, mostly better than the one on trade, or craft gear for sell. You want to kill the option of crafting the gear for sale. This is the beauty of PoE - you can craft really good items and sell them for plenty of ex/c. Buy more mats for crafting and make next gteat items! I don't know any other ARPG that let you craft gear and sell it just like PoE. It is amazing that you can just sit few hours and craft a gear you can sell. The game don't force you to only brainlessly kill things over and over, but it let you earn by crafting and trading! @image Noone hated Jesus because he didn't exist -_- Biggest compliments for my crafted items - "bs, they must have been RMT'ed"
I'm disabled, I have rare case of semperduravera, so I can write things that may look rude, but it is because of disability - I'm forced to tell truth using words you may not like. | |
" Basically, yeah that side effect would happen. For me the game is about killing shit, trading is just one of the many "side quests" of the game that helps you kill shit, and if the side quest is hurting the main game, it should be changed. Of course i am not right nor you are wrong, it`s just the nature of how we perceive the game that is vastly different between us. Last edited by Mortyx on Nov 21, 2019, 12:52:08 PM
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" You see, this is one of the best things is PoE for me - trading crafted stuff. If you don't like the trade, why don't you go SSF? " True. Biggest compliments for my crafted items - "bs, they must have been RMT'ed"
I'm disabled, I have rare case of semperduravera, so I can write things that may look rude, but it is because of disability - I'm forced to tell truth using words you may not like. | |
" You're making some (potentially) incorrect assumptions there. You're basing your criteria on externally produced metrics. You also don't actually know Chris Wilson's critera for deciding who counts as being a player. Chris Wilson is (almost certainly) using internal metric tools, that no player has ever seen, to track trading behavior. It's quite likely that his criteria for deciding who counts as a player (in context) is far more generous than yours, but that's because that's his job. He has customers to serve, it's really his decision to make. " "No matter if the motivation is just". Right ... so ... you're saying you understand why they do it that way? You understand why games in general do it that way? But you still want to rail against the idea, and present it in the most punative light possible? Is that what I'm hearing? Because really, I don't know what to tell you on that. It's a game, a discrete envelope of experience. As the player progresses through that envelope, resistance to said progression will gradually increase. (Potentially to the point where any given individual player finds it too difficult to progress). If you want to be mad, sure go ahead. But you still seem to understand the basic concept, so I'm not sure what you want me (or the game developers) to do about it. Making that content (that you see as being "blocked") more easily accessible won't make anyone happy, they'll just burn through the easy content and complain that they're bored. Regardless, my saying that I reject the usage of the term "block" stands. It's not "blocked". Yes, it does require a greater investment by the individual player to reach it. So what? It's not "inaccessible", it's just harder to reach. It's up to each individual player to decide at what point the effort necessary to progress becomes more effort than the entertainment value returned (by said actions). " Making gear untradeable isn't what the devs want. Chris Wilson addresses his conceptualization of the perceptions of value (of a given item) and how trading impacts that in the Trade Manifesto. Trade isn't going to go away, it's a thing he considers integral to the game. My point is that (from a developer's perspective) the choice is to build a system that imposes arbitrary limits, or to build a system that doesn't impose arbitrary limits, but does include disincentives. In my opinion, you would be almost completely alone in (what I perceive as) your desire for external authority to limit your trading behavior. High end crafting remains an activity that is undertaken by only a tiny, tiny percentage of the player base. Those playing at the very top of the game. You can't build a game around that. " All of whom are a tiny minorty of the total player base. Yes, I'm aware you don't want the people who don't trade to count. However, in this instance, you don't get what you want. Those people who don't trade (and those who only trade a few times, and those who play SSF) do indeed count, and the game has to be built to account for them and to support them (as well as those who do trade), even if you don't like it. I really don't care about your attempts to make a distinction between "traders who cheat" and "traders who don't". Anyone who thinks that adding an AH system into the game would actually reduce botting in the trade system has never actually seen an MMO AH system in action (or, is simply deluding themselves). The API system serves other needs that the developers think are important to the game. I don't necessarily agree, but I'm also happy to let them make that choice. Since the API system does exist, it can be used by sites like poe.trade. And poe.trade is certainly vastly better than the Trade Chat channel. Regardless, the API isn't going away, even if there was an AH, so non-AH trade will remain. And finally, all of the inefficiencys and frustrations associated with "traders who cheat" still falls under the definition of "disincentives to over use-the trade system", specifically from a game design percpective. And don't misunderstand me there. I'm not saying "cheating at trading" is in any way "good" or to be encouraged, I'm saying it's still functions as a reason to minimize the number of trades you personally choose to do, and as such, still falls into the design parameters. " Well, that's the issue. I think the existing trading system works acceptably. I think the "middle ground" (which you dislike) is perfectly acceptable. Specifically, given the design goals Chris Wilson laid out in the Trade Manifesto. " And? Once again this is a case of pushing the choice down to the level of the individual player. If you feel you can't play without trading (for any specific item you've decided you need) then the existing system is there to serve your needs. If you'd rather not trade, then there are methods for you to do that too (which is also part of what the API system supports (it lets me do something in SSF play and prove that I did it in SSF, should that be important to me)). Providing options, and letting the individual players make the choice is an ideal approach. 'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
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" The basis you're speaking about is right, but there's another layer attached to it. Limiting access to any type of content always feels exhausting, it is something which needs to be done in small amounts and without it becoming overbearing. In PoE this refers to nearly any mechanic inside the game though. Outside of Zana-mods you have no actual control over the league-content you're provided with, or at least that was the case until the master-rework this league. Since we got the counter slowly rising on the side and allowing us to engage in specific content people stopped complaining about having a choice in the matter. Actually... the still existing small chance for the masters to spawn on their own are the only sour point at the current time, forcing people to engage with some content (Betrayal) they heavily dislike and want to abstain from for example. The change is a prime example of player choice. The same goes for Delve, Delve not only gives good rewards, it's also a mechanic where you have a large amount of choice. While we don't have control over which nodes spawn in the vicinity on the other hand we can choose a specific path and have a rough picture of what will await us when we go there. Rather going deeper or moving to that hidden path with the fossils? Going the extra mile through the minion-node or rather the direct path? It's all up to you in that case, that's why people like it (despite the style of game-play in itself). The same sadly can't be said about many core mechanics. Interacting with Breach is only possible if the Zana mod is available, same goes for Legion, Essence, Rogue Exiles, Tormented spirits (which nobody likes as they are garbage because of their AI especially) and so on. They are locked behind the '10% gate' which GGG thought is a great idea... but isn't. Not only get league-mechanics ridiculously toned down after a league unless they are attached to a master, they also can't be run repeatedly, we don't get a choice in somehow permanently running them unless we invest a ridiculous amount of time into getting the proper scarabs through trade or engaging with a lot of other content which isn't as enjoyable first. The point of giving players control over the type of content they want to run is to provide meaningful diversity, stuffing a game with random things happening only goes so far, giving players a way to interact with their favorite mechanic as much as they want though... that keeps them engaged, even if the rewards have to be adjusted accordingly. It's not about the rewards any mechanic provides, it's about the different style of play they allow, all of them feeling like a thing on their own. This is something GGG barely focuses on and which costs them a lot of permanent players which don't get 'burned out' from the game. As a prime example of diversity in content you can take OldSchool Runescape here. Bored of farming mobs the common way? No problem, we got a minigame which rewards you and allows to kill stuff! Not enjoyable as well? How about a type of point defense then which also gives rewards, repeatable as much as you like! Not into that today? Go and do one of the crafts. Don't want to run around endlessly? Why not one of the minigames focused around most of those crafts then to spice things up? All can be done as often as one wants, it's pure choice-haven and that's why some players play it for years without burning out. One part becomes boring and you switch over, taking away the mental exhaustion for doing something 'fresh' while still getting rewards, and as you switch back later on you can simply pick up where you left off. Or simply said: The game doesn't force-feed you content you don't like over and over again, instead it gives you a menu to pick from at your own leisure. " That's a point I haven't heard yet. Sure, people might complain about 'not enough trading space' or 'it takes long' for many mechanics... but outright complaining that a trade-mechanic actually poses limitations? Never heard that one before. Escape from Tarkov has 3 trade-slots at any time, thousands of different items (But a quick turnover though). It's a good mechanic to keep the system running. Also it has a limited listing-time. Eve Online has limited trade-slots too so you don't flood the market with good in a second and take out the whole competition. Also limited listing-time. OSRS also has limited slots so you won't do the same and flood the market. Trove also has very limited space for different items you can sell at a single time. All those systems of those games have a limited trade for a REASON. Which is that it reduces the supply to keep prices higher (and thus makes it worthy to trade more different items) while at the same time forces the player to make a choice of what items are the most worthwhile to sell. It's exactly so it takes care of the issue PoE faces right now, which is over-saturation of the market and arbitrary limitations by enforcing heavy time-investment which leads to player-frustration. " Nonetheless you MUST cater to them. It's the same in Eve Online (again). Only a very very small amount of players ever gets their hands on capital ships, still they are a core-part of the game. Same goes with POS (Player owned Station), barely anyone ever owns one and handles it. The same goes for PoE. If you cut off support for high-end crafting then you cut off the engagement of your most dedicated player-base... simply because it's the end-game of the end-game in PoE. Without solving this people simply don't have a reason to stay after fitting a character with mediocre to good equipment as the hassle of trading ruins the fun of creation. " You realize that combining trade with the current API-system in such a mandatory way is the cause for all the issues trading has? Since there is no internal mechanic which only takes care of trades in-game while ONLY providing STATISTICS and INFORMATION outside of the game (as usually an API does, rare exceptions given) we got the following issues: -Listing items can take between a minute and nearly an hour, it's not stable while it should be nearly immediate. -De-listing follows the same issue, you'll get spammed for already sold items, causing trade to become a lot harder for engaged people who are sellers. -It allows automation outside of the game which gives a hefty unfair advantage. One of those examples is the (allowed, as it can't be hindered and is not client-side bot external) usage of the API to create personal live-searches which then copy the message directly into your clipboard, allowing to message players without searching for items personally and a single button to insert the message. -Showing the listing on the official site is limited to 5000 results, meaning your item will most likely not even show up of the player-count at any specific moment is high, this goes for maps, fossils, essences.... all of those things. -And probably a few more I can't be bothered with to remember and write down at the moment. GGG balance is like getting a pizza which is burnt on the sides, raw in the middle and misses the most of the toppings.
Then upon sending it back you get a raw side, burnt middle and enough toppings to drench everything in grease. Everything fixed but still broken. | |
" You've used it 5 times. Its hardly enough to even understand what the benefits of this approach are. I was like you, then I had it explained and came to certain conclusions myself that made the benefits clearer to me. And why try to avoid it? And if so, don't you think an AH would be even less "avoidable"? The "tedious" waiting and whispering is the whole idea of making the trade not a tool you straight up run to like in WoW. And as others explained, this ain't wow. And although it undermines sometimes the grind to get items still like an AH, the fact is the grind is ridiculous and some of us have lives. In which case it makes finding an item you dont want even more reward-able now as someone else that wants it might be looking for it. It also makes crafting an awesome "trade" to be involved in. Puts to good use all the cool things you can make. Lastly, are you trying to make friends? Or have conversations? Or trade and be off with it? Find a party if you want interactions. lol. " I find this hard to believe. Ofc, I have done very few currency trades, less than a handful in buying, but more than a dozen in selling... In many cases we even had conversations of how much we wanted or how the split was, one person only had say 30chaos for what they wanted instead of 35 and I was like "sure, its cool", another person sold me regret orbs and later pmed me asking me if I am a new player, cause the price is rather steep for new players. Most of my experiences are with items though. And although I have only started using trade for like 2 months now, I have never the less done like a hundred trades. (For those about to cry over the "undermining the games core", I have been playing this game for 6 years on and off and all I got is garbage, I do however have currency grinded from all this time, and I'm not getting all those items for free either. Its pure grind hrs spent into the game one way or the other since I dont craft to make currency from there).... Point being, for items, Id say 9/10 times its obvious its not a bot. Just yesterday 2 people either tried to sell me an item that was lower stats than the one I wanted, or mixed them up... I like to give the benefit of a doubt, but they did happen one after the other sooooo, who knows. And there was a proper conversation (and apology from their end) about me wanting the item with the other stats on it. A bot would simply not confuse the simple layout of "left 3, top 9" the system is using. End of the day I too was once thinking "why on earth dont they just do an AH so I can trade things on the fly with afk players or sell things as I am in maps and not bother and pick up my currency later?".... as was explained already by everyone in here, the reason is because an AH will make it accessible and easy to trade to the point that it will totally break the game as it will be the go to solution. As is now, you kinda need to go out of your way for it. And I am cool with it. Again, after what seems like a hundred trades these last 2 months, before that I had never used it, I am more than fine with this method. There needs to be a balance. AH is too much. No trade at all is way worse, especially with the RNG the game has, and decreases the value of your finds as well and in fact will also break the currency system of the game which, as far as I can tell, is one of the best I have seen in any arpg. And the only one were currency isnt just some redundant gold collection. Taking trade out of the game completely is crap. Adding an AH is also crap. So this solution here is the best way to go about it. Adding an in game browser would be nice. As long as it makes the searching easier only (its the same thing practically, just more immersive and no alt+tab needed which seriously is the same thing) and keeps the rest the same with no automated selling/buying in place. Last edited by HazaRdReborN on Nov 23, 2019, 7:51:48 AM
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" So why do you think adding a somehow restricted better trade (call it ah if you want) would be crap? If you think it would make itemization and progress worthless, then you are right but also wrong at the same time, because itemization and progress ARE ALREADY worthless. Give me around 200c and half a hour to do the trading and i can fully gear any character to be able to farm tier 15 maps in current trade system. So if the main reason behind not making trading better is this, then people don't need to worry because it would change nothing compared to now. Poe trade AH already works wonderful for gear (more than GGG ever wanted), its trading small things in large quantities that sucks (be it maps, fragments, fossils, currency or essences). And as i already said in the past we are in a trade bubble that has been expanding since when GGG Trade manifesto was published. We have now: Gear, maps, essences, beasts, prophecies, cards,lots of types of currency (more than there is space in the currency tab btw), breachstones, emblems, fossils, oils, fragments, scarabs, incubators, gems) and soon we will add more to the bubble. And what all these things have in common is that an average players can't get the quantity they need in a meaningful time of playing, so he has to rely on trade if he want access to what these items introduce. A trade which sucks for said items. |
