Dear Chris, thanks for that almost killing joke! :)

Well I was watching the Quin69 interview with Chris and everything was fine and dandy but then out of nowhere Chris almost killed me in real life : "... We have death penalties in path of exile and no one is complaining about them..." I had to laugh that hard that I half way swallowed my chewing gum and I almost smothered before I was able to get this thing out of my throat. Well played Sir, well played.... I suggest you try "... We have labyrinths in path of exile and no one is complaining about them..." next time. lol

Having a couple thousand of posts complaining about the death penalty is "no one is complaining about them".

It means getting a perspective and realizing that not even 1% of the population having an issue with something is in fact, irrelevant.

I'm reminded of the whole "look at the forums, clearly we have a scam epidemic and GGG should fix trade" stuff from some months ago.
People actually convinced themselves that 28 threads about scams in a period of 4 weeks was a relevant data point for assesment.
(just to give you a rough ball-park, we would have needed 280 threads in a month for it to be 1% of the total community and im not sure even that would warrant attention, other then PR attention)

It's fine if people don't like the death penalty, its not suppose to be a rule of the game people "enjoy" but "overcome".

Peace,

-Boem-

they never mention their own official forums it's all reddit this, reddit that.

this was never a suprise, there's mention about death penalty here but I guess not on hiveminddit.

"

Boem wrote:

Having a couple thousand of posts complaining about the death penalty is "no one is complaining about them".

It means getting a perspective and realizing that not even 1% of the population having an issue with something is in fact, irrelevant.

I'm reminded of the whole "look at the forums, clearly we have a scam epidemic and GGG should fix trade" stuff from some months ago.
People actually convinced themselves that 28 threads about scams in a period of 4 weeks was a relevant data point for assesment.
(just to give you a rough ball-park, we would have needed 280 threads in a month for it to be 1% of the total community and im not sure even that would warrant attention, other then PR attention)

It's fine if people don't like the death penalty, its not suppose to be a rule of the game people "enjoy" but "overcome".

Peace,

-Boem-

I guess that would be true if everyone would actually use the forum. But since most players never use the forum I'm pretty sure that there are much more people hating the penalties than your 1%. For example EVERYONE I ever introduced to the game was complaining at least about the xp penalty in softcore.

"

Boem wrote:

Having a couple thousand of posts complaining about the death penalty is "no one is complaining about them".

It means getting a perspective and realizing that not even 1% of the population having an issue with something is in fact, irrelevant.

This.

"

666lol666 wrote:

I guess that would be true if everyone would actually use the forum.

Since people who complain are much more likely to voice their opinion than people that have no problem to begin with, it's likely that amoung people who really have a problem about something, a significant part of them come to complain.


Now, that a player complains about being punished for dying because it can be frustrating, that's .... normal I would say, it just happens, that does not mean that there is a problem with the game though.

"

666lol666 wrote:

there are much more people hating the penalties than your 1%. For example EVERYONE I ever introduced to the game was complaining at least about the xp penalty in softcore.

Over the years I've introduced the game to many, many people. Some took a look at went "OMFG skilltree!!!" And that was before they saw the SKILLS, and the supports, and the items... they fled screaming.

I actually got 7 people to try the game.

1 quit because his comp couldn't handle it (back in breach).
6 quit because they kept getting hammered back to the beginning of their latest level over and over and over... 4 of those actually did learn the game rather well, one made bucketloads of currency in trade. Another made it to level 97 on a cookie cutter build.
ALL six of them are now gone... because of the death penalty. None actually quit because of the lack of a streamlined trade function, game complexity, random one-shots from off screen. All due to the needless loss of progress, rather than some other penalizing mechanic.

"

BlaqWolf wrote:

"

666lol666 wrote:

there are much more people hating the penalties than your 1%. For example EVERYONE I ever introduced to the game was complaining at least about the xp penalty in softcore.

Over the years I've introduced the game to many, many people. Some took a look at went "OMFG skilltree!!!" And that was before they saw the SKILLS, and the supports, and the items... they fled screaming.

I actually got 7 people to try the game.

1 quit because his comp couldn't handle it (back in breach).
6 quit because they kept getting hammered back to the beginning of their latest level over and over and over... 4 of those actually did learn the game rather well, one made bucketloads of currency in trade. Another made it to level 97 on a cookie cutter build.
ALL six of them are now gone... because of the death penalty. None actually quit because of the lack of a streamlined trade function, game complexity, random one-shots from off screen. All due to the needless loss of progress, rather than some other penalizing mechanic.

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

The game is already pretty easy, it would be trivially so and quite boring if the death penalty were reduced.

by my estimation its probably the 3rd most complained about thing in the history of the game that still stands today after trade and melee. desync is gone, that was big, map drops are probably 4th.

if we go on the idea that 1000s of posts, lets be real here, probably 1-3 posts complaining about a thing being present on the front page of feedback at every point during the games 6 year history, if were saying that = no one complaining about the thing in question then essentially were saying no one has ever complained about anything in path of exile.


Its a massively complained about aspect of the game, gigantic, I know, Ive been in most of those threads arguing with the people making them because i think the death penalty should stay. They literally announced they were changing the penalty from 15% to 5% due to tidal waves of complaints about the penalty and then switched it up to 10% before it went live due to a tidal wave of complaints going the other way.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

by my estimation its probably the 3rd most complained about thing in the history of the game that still stands today after trade and melee. desync is gone, that was big, map drops are probably 4th.

if we go on the idea that 1000s of posts, lets be real here, probably 1-3 posts complaining about a thing being present on the front page of feedback at every point during the games 6 year history, if were saying that = no one complaining about the thing in question then essentially were saying no one has ever complained about anything in path of exile.


Its a massively complained about aspect of the game, gigantic, I know, Ive been in most of those threads arguing with the people making them because i think the death penalty should stay. They literally announced they were changing the penalty from 15% to 5% due to tidal waves of complaints about the penalty and then switched it up to 10% before it went live due to a tidal wave of complaints going the other way.

The problem is giving feedback on a game system subjectively or objectively.

The death penalty is suppose to feel bad, that is its entire premise of being in the game.
But within the context of the game(objectively) many routes are available to overcome it and "git gud". The two most fundamental routes being

1) get better (increase skill level, knowledge of the game, character power)
2) get smarter (roll easier maps, play content apropriate for character design etc)

People complaining the death penalty "feels bad" or "is bad" doesn't amount to feedback in my eyes, since it accurately describes its primary aim.

Eliminating the death penalty would amount to destroying any form of hierarchy within the game system as a whole, which would mean we aren't playing a game anymore since games fundamentally are about having fun. And having fun within this context means overcomming difficulty's which in return means overcomming a hierarchy of options and reducing it to the best available choice for the context.

Thats why the natural progression of any long term game is what people call "the meta".
Which is nothing else then reducing the hierarchy of choice to its fundamental most efficient picks.(driven by the death penalty in relation to all other game systems, like the economic aspect or racing for example)

Complaining that the death penalty feels bad to me is like saying that water is wet. It's a good observation but meaningless as a form of feedback since it completely ignores its function within the game as a whole.

The last time i made feedback on a game system was when the gaurdians were given immunity's, because that arbitrarely restricted player choice because GGG fucked up on certain mechanical systems and took the easy way out. Which was on GGG and not on the player and objectively looking at it that was a failure of design as a result of GGG incompetence for which players were being punished.
There was no "get better" or "get smarter" route to overcome this design choice, other then ignore the game systems GGG themselves fucked up on.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

by my estimation its probably the 3rd most complained about thing in the history of the game that still stands today after trade and melee. desync is gone, that was big, map drops are probably 4th.

if we go on the idea that 1000s of posts, lets be real here, probably 1-3 posts complaining about a thing being present on the front page of feedback at every point during the games 6 year history, if were saying that = no one complaining about the thing in question then essentially were saying no one has ever complained about anything in path of exile.


Its a massively complained about aspect of the game, gigantic, I know, Ive been in most of those threads arguing with the people making them because i think the death penalty should stay. They literally announced they were changing the penalty from 15% to 5% due to tidal waves of complaints about the penalty and then switched it up to 10% before it went live due to a tidal wave of complaints going the other way.

That's probably the point behind the statement. Yes, we get a complain topic every week where some guy whines about it. But in every single one of those topics for every guy complaining about it we have another guy arguing against the removal. I guess in Chris mind that evens out to no complains were made in the first place.

Then there is also the fact that Chris is probably paying more attention to reddit then to the forums.