How to fix Melee. (People are gonna hate it though)

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Scherge wrote:

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Crackmonster wrote:

In real warfare melee is simply the most primitive weapon as well because it is so limited compared to ranged and greater explosive weapons.

Yeah and in real life there is something called ammunition...

Yea, but in games we have done away with ammunition for good reason. We also have magic that runs on mana. Your point?

Actually, don't make a point. You missed the point.

The point is melee weapons are just inferior weapons(except close up, where they also are good now) but just like in real life the melee(limited small area around player) they are mechanically inferior weapons for warfare comepared to modern arms(and we don't even have magic spells irl).

Be lucky they didn't try to put in realism where melee rarely wins out in power vs actual powerful ranged weapons. That would just put melee even further behind, here in the game at least they can circumvent some of the real world limitations of melee weapons.

But let me state it again, you cannot escape the fact that melee means limited area around player and unless you remove other skills that can splash larger areas "real" melee skills will remain mechanically inferior.

One thing that should be specific to melee is to get a decent defense compared to non melee characters : we should have the possibility to get a good life leech on any life based melee character and more defensive mechanics. Instead we have dragons of paper with good dps - far from being comparable to range builds - AND without the advantage of being able to tank substantially more than a range build. So basically it loses on both counts.

Though, i don't have any problem with range being more dps oriented but there should be advantages and disadvantages to choose one over the other.

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But let me state it again, you cannot escape the fact that melee means limited area around player and unless you remove other skills that can splash larger areas "real" melee skills will remain mechanically inferior.

False.

Per the original post, trade offs could be implemented where melee does more damage in a smaller area and has more survivability while range maintains the ability to kite and hit more targets from afar.

The numbers just need to be balanced(ish) to where clear speeds are similar. In the current state of the game where everything dies instantly, such would require either intense ranged player damage nerfs or monster life buffs. Boom, now you have interesting choices to make with pros and cons when deciding between ranged and melee.

Many games do this well already. Why do people pretend its impossible?

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Crackmonster wrote:

Actually, don't make a point. You missed the point.

ok, first of all: why do you immediately start BMing, we've really had enough of that lately.

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Crackmonster wrote:

The point is melee weapons are just inferior weapons(except close up, where they also are good now) but just like in real life the melee (limited small area around player) they are mechanically inferior weapons for warfare comepared to modern arms(and we don't even have magic spells irl)

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But let me state it again, you cannot escape the fact that melee means limited area around player and unless you remove other skills that can splash larger areas "real" melee skills will remain mechanically inferior.

In games with magic we can enhance the wielder and the technique used. Flicker strike for example doesn't have more range than any other single target melee hit, but you're warping around like no tomorrow. Cyclone is only a small area around you, but you move across the battlefield like a force of nature.

If your skill can't give you the range, it has to do the walking for you in one way or another. That's why i'm not against sudo melee and would glady welcome movement skills being brought up to snuff.


My stance is even less about realism than you make it sound, which was the actual point of my remark.

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Crackmonster wrote:

Be lucky they didn't try to put in realism where melee rarely wins out in power vs actual powerful ranged weapons. That would just put melee even further behind, here in the game at least they can circumvent some of the real world limitations of melee weapons

I didn't even try to deny that.

One reason melee was used in warfare throughout all of history is because arrows cost something and at some point they will run out. Also it's easier to hit a target in front of you than aiming at a certain distance. It's also easier to give a man a sword and tell him to whack someone than to teach him archery.

In our case we don't have these limitations that balistic weaponry has. Ranged looses it's mayor drawback and... yeah, this way it's a lot more deadly in comparison.


D2 didn't even do that good of a job convaying these disadvantages but at least it did and it worked. Crossbows needed a shitton of strentgh (like longbows should as well), you had to refill your quivers now and then, even tho that didn't really slow you down being prepared meant to carry around a backup quiver. Mana reg was laughably weak compared to what we have in POE.
There where not equivalents of multiple prejectiles or similar.



Ranged and spells lost what would have made them slow, unreliable and exhausting.
It's time we think outside the box and don't take melee for swinging a stick around, like nuking a field of enemies has nothing to do with real archery. You say you're against realism and still you let yourself get pulled down by IRL limitations of melee.

In your first post (that i didn't answer in full length) you made some good points. About fortify for example.
But i'm not done with giving exclusivity to some mechanics for melee, i want melee to feel good and empowering. Is it done with dealing more damage... nah, we sit on a sewsaw. When do we reach the point where ranged sits on the losing end?

What melee needs is more utility!
melee:
Splash/Ancestor, Warchief/(Protector)

Ranged:
Pierce, (Fork), Chain, GMP/LMP/Volley, Mirrage Archer, Traps/Mines, RA-Totem + the advantage of being ranged

It's not just about speed/AoE. It's about mechanics that can be enjoyable. Yes that might differ for everyone but most would agree that cyclone or ED can be enjoyable even if they don't clear as fast as arc mines. It would be ideal if there was more diversity and meaningful choices around skills with interesting mechanics.

Another option could be to rework and separate melee skills into 2 categories, good for clearing (ground slam, reave, wild strike, frost blades etc.) and good for bossing (dual strike, vigilant strike, heavy strike) and have a good synergy between the 2 so melee players could easily use both on one character.

You are talking about developers who nerfed Ice crash ASPA once it was found to be strong in beta but let tornado shot and mirage archer untouched even after few leagues showing how broken they were.

Thing is they are shit scared to give melee some strong buff.

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Scherge wrote:

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It's no mystery to me what you are saying, but for melee skills to do the "walking", you will be turning them into flicker the all of them and - what's the goddamn point? That's just a crappy solution. Like, i can't even get started on seriously considering it because i have done so years ago and ended up realizing how bad a solution that would be.

There is surely room for improvement in particular adjusting damage values and surviveability of melee and also i forgot but as someone mentioned - life leech can be improved for melee.

But, at the end of the day, even with improvemens melee will always remain inferior for general monster farming. It has its niche, or should have, in fighting harder targets like bosses where increased surviveability and damage can shine. But you can't just outrageously increase it's damage, or nerf damage of ranged, or make it immortal in melee that will break the game. There isn't really much seperation most bosses do moves that hit huge areas and if any ranged build instantly get deaded or if melee can fully ignore these things it's gonna be a shitty experience overall. Most builds are just about being able to sponge enough to protect yourself from oneshots/spikes.

What i am saying is, there is some wiggle room but not that much - at the end of the day people are gonna have to accept the reality that melee skills are mechanically inferior - and if you want to play melee because you love the playstyle then accept it and move on. That doesn't mean, you can't post about improvements but its a huge misconception that all builds shall be equal. Melee will never be the best screen clearer for obvious reason. The best you can hope for is that melee gets to be somewhat safer with better damage and therefore an excellent boss killer.

Even if they make a more interesting set of melee skills for example like whirling strike type things where you move as you deal damage to an area, even then, it will just never compete with press the key and clear the screen and that is the root of the envy melee feels.

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Scherge wrote:

"here! it's awful to play melee, we know, but if you can stomach it you'll get more candy than the rest of the kids"

If melee is a playstyle that you cannot "stomach", why even play melee in the first place ?

I'm sorry, I enjoy playing melee in the current state of the game ( not molten strike ), is it as good as brands and stuff ?
Nop, but that does not make it less enjoyable to me.

You're way overthinking this issue. All it would take to fix melee is to make every single melee skill have built-in Melee Splash, and remove that support from the game.

That's it, you're done.

Because that's really the problem, isn't it? All of these threads like "Everyone says melee is bad... except for molten strike, reave, blade flurry, consec path, cyclone, ground slam..." but what they're really saying is "single target melee skills are bad." There would actually be a reason to use heavy strike, glacial hammer, viper strike, etc if they naturally hit several targets with every swing.

And it even makes thematic sense, because the idea of a dude swinging a massive battle axe while chest-deep in monsters and somehow managing to only hit one of them is just silly.