The problem with brands, Arc, and similar skills.

@OP

Admittedly, one reason I've always enjoyed arc(and I played it a LOT before it was made actually good!) is because it lets me use a playstyle that doesn't give me carpal tunnel in no time. I am aware it and the brand's autotargeting nature disadvantage other builds, but I really enjoy being able to save my hand by applying two different curses with storm brand, get mana leech, arcane surge, and onslaught from orb of storms autotargeting, and flee from bosses while knowing my arc will find it over on the edge of the screen. Also take note I actually refuse to play traps or totems even if self cast means I automatically make the game far more dangerous because I do want to actually play the game.

A problem with the complaint is that aoe or duration skills can technically be complained about for the same reasons. Who knows what skills will be way far ahead in a given patch/league, but they will be the ones that offer the safest way to deal massive damage consistently. PoE is a mess to try to balance perfectly, but I generally feel like it's better to look at why a skill might need a boost over why other skills need to be made less playable even if it makes some of the more extreme players happier to weaken things.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

And let's face it: That's what they're REALLY trying to do. And it IS an illusion, because the endgame is absolutely balanced around those few skills and not around the massively undertuned skills all the naive plebs are using.

the problem is, as johnkeys rightly said, its a chicken and the egg problem

GGG make a skill completely op in relation to others. then they LOGICALLY assume that tryhards, ie people who will tackle the biggest tip of the iceberg, will be using this skill because it shits on other skills. so they balance around it.

it becomes a circle of intentional meta shifts and skill promotion instead of healthy choice. people will still play new skills because they're new, but I think failed new skills or reworks give them PTSD

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鬼殺し wrote:

Don't see the problem. Every good shooting game has an autism upgrade.

a good shooting game with autoaim (or as you well put it, autism) is an oxymoron

autoaim is an ugly bastard of a byproduct of imprecision of non-mouse input, ie reeking of consoles' womb fluids.

a game like Quake 3 has no autoaim and has no real need of autoaim.

so once again, fuck consoles for bringing that shit into the world. all they brought into PC Gaming is idiot-proof concepts

Oh, I just wish they'd put autoaim for picking up loot. Picking up loot requires more aim than killing a monster.

I don't mind Arc or Brand mechanics.
When compared to some others
Flameblast
- makes you static (vulnerable)
- have to aim it (and predict mob movement)
+ mostly combined with Prolif - killing crap after initial cast

Firestorm
- long cast time
- takes long to kill
- can miss (dancing in the rain, anyone?)
- have to aim it (and predict mob movement)
+ duration base crap
+ hits multiple times (can be abused with on hit crap)

Freeze Pulse
- lame dmg, lame effect, lame blocking issues (you know, the joke "Freze pulse walks into a bar, but it doesn't pass the doors)
+ kinda nice for leveling till lvl 12 when you can get Arc


There are skills with better mechanics than others.
It's not like other spells aren't viable, you can beat the game as lvl 36 ranger but if there is a con, there should be some advantages to compensate.
Like AoE spells which you need to aim, but if you miss, you still hit the whole screen , that level of compensation perhaps.

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Marxone wrote:

I don't mind Arc or Brand mechanics.
When compared to some others
Flameblast
- makes you static (vulnerable)
- have to aim it (and predict mob movement)
+ mostly combined with Prolif - killing crap after initial cast

Firestorm
- long cast time
- takes long to kill
- can miss (dancing in the rain, anyone?)
- have to aim it (and predict mob movement)
+ duration base crap
+ hits multiple times (can be abused with on hit crap)

Freeze Pulse
- lame dmg, lame effect, lame blocking issues (you know, the joke "Freze pulse walks into a bar, but it doesn't pass the doors)
+ kinda nice for leveling till lvl 12 when you can get Arc


There are skills with better mechanics than others.
It's not like other spells aren't viable, you can beat the game as lvl 36 ranger but if there is a con, there should be some advantages to compensate.
Like AoE spells which you need to aim, but if you miss, you still hit the whole screen , that level of compensation perhaps.

I don't mind them either. More specifically: I don't mind playing Arc or Brand builds. They're fun!

It is their influence upon both balance and mechanical combat design decisions and therefore their ultimate net effect of making many other build types obsolete that I object to.

Let me be clear. This thread is not "Arc and Brand, OPIEOP NERF NOW!" Rather it is, "Please consider the long-term ramifications upon your own game's design that these skills lead to."

Arc and Brand are both fun to play with, I agree. But they are damaging build diversity. And why should we care about build diversity?

Because build diversity grants us far more choices. And why should we care about choices?

Because choices are what make a game interactive, and it is that interactive quality that makes us enjoy them in ways we don't, for example, enjoy movies.

It's no accident that the very first post in this thread criticizes the excessively non-interactive nature of those and similar skills. Ever play a clicker game? Is that really what you want PoE to model itself after?

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gibbousmoon wrote:

I'll keep this brief, because the argument does not need to be complex.

The reason everyone is making fun of you instead of bothering to respond to your points is because nobody takes you seriously when you say things this ignorant. You're showing your ignorance of not only POE's mechanics, but the entire design philosophy of the game.

POE is about building exactly the character you want, and between shaped rares and abyss jewels literally anything can be a build now. If you have a problem with self-targeting skills, just don't use them. Nobody is forcing you to, and nobody cares what content you do and don't clear.

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grepman wrote:

so once again, fuck consoles for bringing that shit into the world. all they brought into PC Gaming is idiot-proof concepts

Gamepad is obviously crap for shooters, same as keyboard+mouse are crap for fighting games (every tried playing Mortal Kombat without gamepad? Good luck!)

And instead of using an appropriate controller for given genre (as we, PC players, do - buy gamepad for fighting games to not be beaten like rag dolls), they decide to "bandaid" a problem with "autoaim" or AoE/homing guns, that dont need good aiming to score a hit.
Really, RTS and FPS games without a mouse are no more than a joke!

And sadly, PoE goes the same way - instead of slowing gameplay to match "normal" ARPGs, it has to overnerf rewards per enemy killed, cause number of killed enemies reaches astronomical numbers

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

(every tried playing Mortal Kombat without gamepad? Good luck!)

huh ?
ever ?

more like 'always' and never had a problem with it

MK1
MK2
MK3
Trilogy
MK4


^^sunk tons of hours in those games on PC, before deadly alliance decided to be full ret...I mean full console. I was a MK 'fan' so to speak. hell, I waited many years to play mythologies:sub-zero on an emulator instead of a *shudders* console.

sub-zero ice attack: right/left arrow + down arrow + end
scorpion spear: righ/left arrow x2 + home

if it's a turing machine, it can be done on keyboard.

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grepman wrote:

if it's a turing machine, it can be done on keyboard.

Normal KB is too clunky for that, if want to fight good. Too long latency, etc. Might be different with T1 gaming ones, though.

Oh, and if you think that learn special moves is enough to become a good fighter... well, GL. Timing is often far more important, that just spamming special moves...