The problem with brands, Arc, and similar skills.

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Rakiii wrote:

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elemental_oasis wrote:

the agressive AI and auto targeting of brands and totems are nice for console versions of poe

Trained monkey can play PoE these days.

Please provide visual evidence that a trained monkey (as an animal) can play poe? Or are you calling a person as a trained monkey if so then I think this is an indirect insult to the game developers that their game can be played by a trained monkey?

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elemental_oasis wrote:

The auto-casting & auto-targeting of brands and totems are also very helpful to us summoners being utility skills to direct our minions and generate frenzy charges. Example: We want to give our minions frenzy charges at the same time blind enemies but we dont want to lost the benefits of shield so we don't invest necromanctic aegis. We use the shield victario charity and flame totem+faster casting+blind because flame totem is a very fast hitting spell then it's a guarantee that frenzy charges will be generated and enemies will be blinded.

Since when totems can generate charge for you ? Can you expand I always thought it wasnt the case or its a special behavior ?

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ffogell wrote:

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elemental_oasis wrote:

The auto-casting & auto-targeting of brands and totems are also very helpful to us summoners being utility skills to direct our minions and generate frenzy charges. Example: We want to give our minions frenzy charges at the same time blind enemies but we dont want to lost the benefits of shield so we don't invest necromanctic aegis. We use the shield victario charity and flame totem+faster casting+blind because flame totem is a very fast hitting spell then it's a guarantee that frenzy charges will be generated and enemies will be blinded.

Since when totems can generate charge for you ? Can you expand I always thought it wasnt the case or its a special behavior ?

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/5mjjf7/psa_victarios_charity_can_be_used_to_generate_you/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VAyNPBrAvQ

I mean the argument defeats itself. It has been clear that GGG does not attempt to balance the game. Every league they "meta shift" which is very different from balancing.

The only way GGG completely "kills" the game is to stop "meta shifting" AND then never do a final balance pass.

As long as GGG keeps releasing content and shifting the meta, people will play.

This league it is storm brand... next league it could be flame totem.

As long as goal posts move, people will run towards them. It should be when GGG stops moving the goalposts that you should be worried (aka D3 syndrome).

I don't see how a game that is constantly being updated can just flat out die. It is always shifting, and as such, the game will always feel "new" to those who chose to play it.

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I already did you have zero experience or as budget put it.

You have no credibility.

But show me your so called OP power ness of your ''LONG term health'' game because you don't have any.

When you have zero experience why do you think you have an opinion to think if something is OP or not or go ''LONG TERM HEALTH''!!! HALP NERF / STOP MAKING THEM!

i bet every single noob normie could kill every single boss in this game just thanks to brands. I am a bit slow in the head and the reactions, and I can do it with not very special gear.

But whatever, i dont really care about that. Problem is it leaves so much behind it, but thats not the point of OP i guess.

I think we should accept as a community that meta automated multimillion dps builds are akin to playing in easy mode. Which means they can exist but anyone who plays them shouldn't be taken seriously if they talk down to their peers about accomplishments, wealth, etc.

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Prizy wrote:

I mean the argument defeats itself. It has been clear that GGG does not attempt to balance the game. Every league they "meta shift" which is very different from balancing.

The only way GGG completely "kills" the game is to stop "meta shifting" AND then never do a final balance pass.

As long as GGG keeps releasing content and shifting the meta, people will play.

This league it is storm brand... next league it could be flame totem.

As long as goal posts move, people will run towards them. It should be when GGG stops moving the goalposts that you should be worried (aka D3 syndrome).

I'm not so sure meta-shifting to the degree GGG does it is as necessary as you claim. An ARPG with dozens of fully viable and competitive playstyles each league sounds like a pretty good recipe for longevity to me. Even if you aren't an altoholic, the ability to choose from many different skills and not have to worry about whether it will be competitive has a lot of appeal, to traders and SSF players alike.

I have a friend who does 40/40 every league and rolled an SSF character this league to help get his needed dailies. He went straight for Arc trapper, not because he found that option interesting but because he found it safe. And he is far from unusual.

And this is a good thing?

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I don't see how a game that is constantly being updated can just flat out die. It is always shifting, and as such, the game will always feel "new" to those who chose to play it.

Of course it won't die. Not because of this, in any case. I never said it would (despite one or two trolly posters putting those words in my mouth prior to your post). It will just continue to be a much less interesting game than it could be.

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鬼殺し wrote:

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LowBudget780 wrote:

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鬼殺し wrote:

Every good shooting game has an autism upgrade.

Yup

Some autocorrects you just don't fuck with, I guess.

Yeah, still scratching my head over that one. Your post reads like brilliant comedy that goes over everyone's head.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

When you don't have to play the game, to target the monster (arc), or even cast the spell again on a monster (brands), why bother with skills where you have to work for your power?

I don't think the idea that you're "not playing the game" is a particularly helpful contribution. If we're seriously to remove anything other than "aiming skills at monsters" from the idea of "playing the game", then there's very little game left in POE. Not all parts of the game, and not all character builds, involve the same amount of 'clicks per second' or 'work' or however you want to describe it. That's normal.


More importantly though, to answer the question here: because you enjoy it? I feel like everything becomes a lot better once you're trying to serve your own enjoyment rather than trying to do well in some meaningless competition.

I mean look, sure, I understand the argument that perhaps skills that come with some level of extra convenience like "passive" or "auto-aimed" damage should be trading that off for some degree of raw power. I get it. I'm not trying to say the game is as well "balanced" (I don't even like that word for a game like this) as it could be. But I think there comes a point where people have to take some responsibility for their own mindset.

Because people who truly and honestly agree with the implication of the rhetorical "why bother" question up there - people who think there's no point using a skill that's a bit less powerful or less convenient - are going to abandon any of these partially-automated skills as soon as that power gets reduced anyway. You can't actually provide interesting choices for people who are prioritising "keeping up with meta builds", because they aren't looking for interesting choices in the first place, they're just picking whatever is found to be optimal.

picking whatever is optimal.

this is NOT a problem. problem is: there are just FEW optimal choices where could be - with some effort on GGG part - MANY.

and dont tell me this is done on purpose. there are lots of sayings about attributing purpose where something else should be. they are true more often than not


meta shifts.. isnt it funny that their Brand 'archetype' is so clumsily done that people are NOT using Hiero and some of the brand-only clusters? do anyone here really thinks it is done on purpose?


auto-play skills are needed so even clumsy players have a chance. thats the business reality. you can attract less cappable and make them 1st class citizens in a - lol - competitive game. this sounds absurd. but it is how it is. easier, cheaper game - more users. fast food..


oh and if you think Brands are automated - play Winter Orb. oh boi

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sidtherat wrote:

picking whatever is optimal.

this is NOT a problem. problem is: there are just FEW optimal choices where could be - with some effort on GGG part - MANY.

I don't really agree in a game like this. If other skills do just as much DPS with the same ease of coverage as Arc, then people looking for optimal DPS will pick Arc, but people concerned with 'fairness' will complain. If you reduce the relative damage of Arc because that seems unfair, then people looking for that optimal skill will stop picking Arc. I'm not saying either of those groups of people is wrong, they just have priorities that are in conflict. You can't satisfy everyone at once.

Better to question what the point is of caring whether your damage is optimal; of caring whether someone else's build is killing bosses faster than yours. Surely what matters is whether you are enjoying playing the game.

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sidtherat wrote:

meta shifts.. isnt it funny that their Brand 'archetype' is so clumsily done that people are NOT using Hiero and some of the brand-only clusters? do anyone here really thinks it is done on purpose?

Not to make any statement about "meta shifts being done on purpose", but surely the fact that people are using Brands without all the brand passives is a good thing, not some kind of evidence of clumsiness. I mean, would we consider it a good thing if the only way to use totems was to take all the totem nodes? If the only way to use lightning skills was to take all the lightning nodes? If using a sword meant having to take all the sword damage nodes? To me, the fact that people can readily use brands while picking and choosing which brand passives they take is demonstration of a good implementation.