End game is only sustaining red maps. Fun?

I appreciate the replies, they are thoughtful and constructive. My experience after 1000 or so maps is that I do not net positive gains. I've researched Elder influence, traded for maps in my best quandrants, I simply expend my maps and end up running 7/8/9s.

Peterlerock, I respect your perspective on the game. Can you, I wonder, consider how the game comes across when you simply run maps over and over and over and it simply peters out (no pun intended) with no progress? It doesn't come across to me as good game design. Beating a level, only to have to go back and redo previous levels... how is that good design? If you lost, sure. But you beat a level, and are sent backwards? What?

I understand the need for a non-ending endgame, but maps dont feel like an afterthought that is optional completing the game. Beating the shaper does. Yes, I could purchase guardian maps until I down him, but RNG is RNG and I would have to RMT to do so. I dont RMT so its simply a dead end.

How could it be better? Lots of ways. Make maps 100% drop from bosses for the next higher tier and non-tradeable, and each time you defeat the atlas and beat the shaper it resets and the whole thing is harder like shaper orbs but with increased drops. Voila. Endless progression but it doesnt make completing the Atlas a giant game of RNG luck drops.

Thanks again for the constructive replies, I think I am done with this, and won't be leaving positive reviews for others based solely on this awful endgame mechanics. Hopefully the next expansion is based more on the original game, and not the whack-a-mole travesty that Atlas of Worlds is. Good luck and good hunting all.

"

trixxar wrote:

I appreciate the replies, they are thoughtful and constructive. My experience after 1000 or so maps is that I do not net positive gains. I've researched Elder influence, traded for maps in my best quandrants, I simply expend my maps and end up running 7/8/9s.

Peterlerock, I respect your perspective on the game. Can you, I wonder, consider how the game comes across when you simply run maps over and over and over and it simply peters out (no pun intended) with no progress? It doesn't come across to me as good game design. Beating a level, only to have to go back and redo previous levels... how is that good design? If you lost, sure. But you beat a level, and are sent backwards? What?

I understand the need for a non-ending endgame, but maps dont feel like an afterthought that is optional completing the game. Beating the shaper does. Yes, I could purchase guardian maps until I down him, but RNG is RNG and I would have to RMT to do so. I dont RMT so its simply a dead end.

How could it be better? Lots of ways. Make maps 100% drop from bosses for the next higher tier and non-tradeable, and each time you defeat the atlas and beat the shaper it resets and the whole thing is harder like shaper orbs but with increased drops. Voila. Endless progression but it doesnt make completing the Atlas a giant game of RNG luck drops.

Thanks again for the constructive replies, I think I am done with this, and won't be leaving positive reviews for others based solely on this awful endgame mechanics. Hopefully the next expansion is based more on the original game, and not the whack-a-mole travesty that Atlas of Worlds is. Good luck and good hunting all.

Red maps drop, even for SSF player like me who cannot spend every single currency in maps.

Here is my map pool in SSF Bestiary league right now:

https://imgur.com/a/zwccZ

However I side with you on the game design thing.

As a SSF player, the fact that this game put some much emphasis on trading piss me off. The RNG fest is kinda obnoxious. I don't like the way atlas progression is designed but I still deal with it. Red maps drop but the system is not my personal liking. So I can understand that some players are getting frusrated.

Hi dude. It's good that you enjoyed the game so far, but I think you're missing a really important aspect of the game: poe is balanced around trading. The end game 'loop' looks something like: buy 50 maps, do them all and gain maybe 25 maps of the same tier, go buy 25 more and keep the rest of the 'gain'. To do this easily try the poe.trade currency section to buy in bulk and not waste 1h buying maps. Also, if you feel burned out, try what I did: play Harcdore. Really, that is so refreshing and if it doesn't work out, you can always move your currency from hc temp league to sc temporary (only between temp leagues!). Good luck exile!

"

noisakrach wrote:

Red maps drop, even for SSF player like me who cannot spend every single currency in maps.

Here is my map pool in SSF Bestiary league right now:

https://imgur.com/a/zwccZ

However I side with you on the game design thing.

As a SSF player, the fact that this game put some much emphasis on trading piss me off. The RNG fest is kinda obnoxious. I don't like the way atlas progression is designed but I still deal with it. Red maps drop but the system is not my personal liking. So I can understand that some players are getting frusrated.

Thank you very much for the screenshot. Especially coming from a SSF player it is undeniable proof that map sustain is only a l2play issue for most people.

OP needs to take a long hard look at this an reevaluate the way he plays his maps.

I disagree with you when it comes to the trading bit and RNG. The game would be boring without either for most people.

Yes there are a select few who prefer solitude and play SSF. that is fantastic. GGG made a game mode for you.

We have however also these kind of players:

1. People who enjoy getting their build running trough any means and if the mean trading so be it.

2. A lot of people enjoy playing the economy and amassing wealth: so be it.

3. Some simply like to share challenges and help others.

4. Some like to give away items and feel good about themselves.

5. I like having a shared Gbank with my friend and support his crafting addiction.

My point being there are a lot more people who benefit from being able to trade anything and party togedher than there are SSF players. Because of the open trading very good items need to be very rare thus the high levels of RNG (maps not counted as you clearly proved).

This is why I think that GGG should never balance around SSF. They did once (The Encroaching Darkness) and there is a reason it's not common anymore: the game was flooded with unique maps. I have over 300 in standard from Abyss alone.

"

trixxar wrote:

"I don't understand how anyone can not sustain at least T11"

Its simple, the maps dont drop. I alch, 130 atlas, switch out gear for rarity, move through maps in a few minutes at most, use shaper orbs, etc.

The maps dont drop.

Rarity gear (and IIQ gear too) does nothing and speeding up in maps hurt your sustain, as opposed to methodically full clearing every corner. But you don't need to do that, it's just alching is ineffective. I did this last league:

- alch a map
- if good quantity & packsize then add fortune favours the brave Zana mod
- if poor quantity / packsize then Vaal (can get 8 mod monster map, 30% free quantity or +1 map level).

"

Bone2flesh wrote:

Especially coming from a SSF player it is undeniable proof that map sustain is only a l2play issue for most people.


Yes there are a select few who prefer solitude and play SSF. that is fantastic. GGG made a game mode for you.

We have however also these kind of players...

First, a handful of reds proves what? Ive run dozens. Obtaining a T11 map means what?

As for types of players, how about ones who want to actually fight the game, not corner the market on some odd commodity, to haggle with other traders to progress...


Ok, simple question. I assume I am a fairly normal video game player. There are all types, yes, but one who plays games to fight the challenge of the mobs/level, progress a character. That has to be the most basic type. Its the core of almost all action games, any platform, ever made.

GGG has set up an endgame where you have to stop fighting the game and either become a trader/collector just to play the normal game. How does this make sense. Beating the bosses nets you nothing if you dont get a random drop. You can play perfectly, and end up back fighting pointless T8 bosses who might get you back to T13... just to drop back and fight T8 again.

So, you listed off all the types of players. Tell me how this game model suits the most basic variant. They want to challenge the game (not run a poe.trade spreadsheet to determine where bargains are so they can get rich and buy maps) and progress? This model seems suited to anyone who doesnt actually enjoy the challenge of the first 10 acts, and wants something completely different... how does this make any sense?

Even the person you thanked said, and I quote "However I side with you on the game design thing"

The simplest answer is this isnt a game for all people, yet the reality of the first 10 acts fits well within normal gaming archetypes, only to be replaced with the whack-a-mole variant. Do Tier 8, now Tier 9, now Tier 10, 11, 12, oops back to T8, now T7, now 10, now 11, 12, 13, oops back to 8.

Enjoying games is subjective, sure. But I would argue no clear progression, everything based off RNG is a garbage design.

Imagine if you beat Act 9, and you click the portal for Act 10, and it says "Nope, play Act 8 again, and you have a 1/15 chance to access Tier 9, in which case you have a 1/25 chance to access Tier 10."

Would you still be on here defending it?

"

trixxar wrote:

I understand the need for a non-ending endgame, but maps dont feel like an afterthought that is optional completing the game. Beating the shaper does.

Poe caters to two audiences: casuals and hardcore gamers (and everybody in between).
Shaper is content purely for the latter. What do you think, how many players have beaten all maps and shaper?

Imho, the biggest mistake was not gated access to shaper, but to to call it a "quest". It makes people (like you, I guess) feel entitled that they should be able to finish the quest line, when in fact it's just a series of lategame encounters for hardcore gamers.

But as it is, there is always this message in the right corner of your screen. "follow shaper... Collect memories... Beat guardians... Kill shaper... Kill uber elder..."
I understand it's annoying to have this dangling in front of you, but out of reach.

I think uber atziri is better design: she is hard to reach, all the same as shaper... but the game doesn't make it an official quest, she's just there.

I'm totally getting the drop frustration - early on it seemed like folks were exaggerating and that drop rates would just need some fine-tuning.

Given my current experience, I just don't see the maps anymore. Even in abyss, I would regularly get the prophecy with free tier 1 maps way more often than I liked, but at least they helped sustain chisels in the recipe.

I might have gotten that prophecy once or twice, and that's with me using more prophecies than I ever did in abyss. I have a feeling that they really skewed some numbers, like how atziri's reflection was announced but its so insanely rare its impractical to consider building around it. The only two on the market are listed at 300 exalt and 33600 regrets - while I'm sure there are probably a handful more out there - when an item is that rare it's as if it was never added at all.

I've got well over 500 strong steel nets.... I had to slow down on capturing random yellows since the menagerie fills a lot faster than expected despite an overwhelming list of junk recipes.

Mapwise I can't even run the lower shaped tiers regularly - with as rare as map drops have become, even if the right tier drops its unlikely to be one I actually want to run. I wouldn't mind struggling with red map sustain but I can't even sustain a shaped beach or arid lake. I tried running 10 vaults alched (and chiseled) and got maybe 2 back out of those runs, and what few maps did drop were generally lower tier regardless.

Given that the game revolves around doing the same thing over and over - when the game makes it harder to do even that....

You have a valid concern but at some point you have to expect repeating something over and over for end game. I am going to address what I think from a hardcore standpoint - because I definitely could not even play as long as I have recently if it wasn't for the risk of dying.

Here is thing, the large discrepancy in pings hampers end game. Why? Unlike other ARPGs where you would publicly grind a boss that was relatively safe, mapping and it's nature with hardcore map mods pretty much means you need the best pings.
I can handle even up for 250-300ms if the end game grind was something like "Baal runs", but red mapping? Not a chance. 1/3 of the players give me 400-500ms which is not fun, the other 1/3 250-300ms, which is tolerable just low risk stuff like leveling quests/xp grinding, and the other I can do end game content with. The problem is that many people who play are not in that 1/3, so you guessed it I end up just running maps alone.

So I get this feeling of I am an offline player with access to chat--like SSF players would feel. I can grind rep maps, drop to yellow, hope to go back to red, get currency to try new builds, die, level again etc, but it's all being done alone. That's a hardware/technical issue though, and I am sure if we all had the same pings end game grinding would be a lot more interesting.

You have ~3 months per season, it's meant to be short so by the time you've done all the end game bosses, become rich, have multiple geared builds you can then start fresh again. I would prefer it if the actual acts were the source of grinding, certain areas for certain gear, an exponential level grind that's ping friendly rather than maps but it seems that';s the way ARPGs go. Diablo 3 has rifts, POE has mapping, even though mapping is way more fun it still just segments people.

If you get into the trading side of the game and enjoy increasing your wealth and you play hardcore you'd get a lot more longevity out of the season but even now I am not feeling motivated to just solo map for 2 more months.

World PVP would spice things up but that will never happen. I definitely agree red map sustain is an issue, and the option of paying 4c+ and having the drops not even cover the cost AND drop lower tier maps isn't cool. There are 10 acts, I feel there could have been something more interesting to involve their for end game grinding. Either way, repetition is always going to be there.

Also SSF was an unneeded mode to split the population. Give an offline mode, these games are meant for interaction, economies, trading, helping others, you miss out so much by purposely removing this and then you get SSF players wanting a multiplayer game to be balanced around single player. I still think this was GGGs biggest mistake - but they make up for it with all the good decisions. I am just sick of hearing SSF players every day go on and on, maybe they should have no chat so they can truly be alone like they want to be. Hardcore and softcore, that's all you need.

Hey, I just wanted to let you a note thanking you for:

- not using elder influence

- not finishing atlas and zana quest

- not using elder orb

- not using prophecies

- not using atziri frags

- not using sextants

- still thinking we're in 3.0

Without you guys I wouldn't have been able to sell 2000 chaos of maps over the week.


Oh and given I've been chaining eldered T16 non-stop (can't sustain had to buy like 3 T16 maps over the week, cause i've been lazy with frags!) there are 2 solutions:

- you're doing it wrong

- Rasputin and Jesus are back from the dead and in an attempt to take over the world they have joined forces and the first step of their plan is to attack the map pools of the best poe players.

You're right, must be option 2!

Cheers

PS: doesn't apply to SSF players, well you wanted the hard option, you got it...