Please stop complain about map sustain and alchemy orbs. They both are not real issues.

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sirgog wrote:

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st0rmie wrote:

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Enzymaticc wrote:

The SSF streamers you're talking about with 1-2 stash tabs full of red maps also happen to play for 14+ hours per day, so that's kind of a terrible argument to make.

That doesn't make sense. If maps were "unsustainable", then the more hours you played the WORSE your problem would be, wouldn't it?

You can't defeat the arguments of these people with logic. The Reddit whine brigade have utter faith that they are right.

Anyone using Zana Bloodlines and chisel/alch (all on red maps only), alongside a solidly developed atlas and that is killing bosses will not have ongoing map sustain issues. They probably will have teething problems when first breaking into a new tier as variance can be a killer when your pool is small, but when that happens you just stay in your current tier a bit longer. They won't be able to sustain exclusively T16s, but T13-16 will certainly be possible.

Sextants don't seem necessary. They are of course great to get extra maps to onsell.

Now if you remove all of those elements - no bloodlines, no chisel/alch, a low atlas bonus because of a shaped strategy, and skipping bosses - you will fail to sustain maps. Likewise if you attempt to stay in red maps but just transmute your maps, again, you will fall back. Both are completely by design.

Every ten points of Atlas bonus matters much more than people think it does.

Looking at Aila's or Ventrua's SSF Atlases, unlocking red maps doesn't seem like a way to go actually. They have only 1 shaped T11-15, but they only shape maps with a lot of monsters (I think this is very important and not many people run such maps preferring maps that can have probalby 2 times less monsters), always try to have Influence on maps they run, chisel as much as they can, use sextants when available (not a whole lot of time) and always kill boss. Having a lot of T11-15 maps unlocked means you will get all kinds of maps and not all of them have good layout or density, it's hard to sell maps when you have a few of each as well as opposed to when you have bulk of shaped maps.

Currenty League encourages you to unlock entire Atlas though, to have a better shot at elusive T15 Elder spawn that gates End-game content and 40/40 challenges making getting 40/40 very hard (and expensive, if you prefer shaped Atlas) this time. :/

Please stop complaining about people complaining.

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SunL4D2 wrote:

Even people in SSF have stashes filled to the brim with red maps. It's probably you who needs to cahnge your approach to map sustain.

+1

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st0rmie wrote:

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Enzymaticc wrote:

The SSF streamers you're talking about with 1-2 stash tabs full of red maps also happen to play for 14+ hours per day, so that's kind of a terrible argument to make.

That doesn't make sense. If maps were "unsustainable", then the more hours you played the WORSE your problem would be, wouldn't it?

+1

People use the term "sustain" differently here. To some, it means to never have to ever run a lower tier map...ever. To others it means to be able to run a tier often enough to make it "routine" even though they often drop tiers to maintain their stacks. That might be where this argument is coming from.

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st0rmie wrote:

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Enzymaticc wrote:

The SSF streamers you're talking about with 1-2 stash tabs full of red maps also happen to play for 14+ hours per day, so that's kind of a terrible argument to make.

That doesn't make sense. If maps were "unsustainable", then the more hours you played the WORSE your problem would be, wouldn't it?

Your right but only when you factor in that what we are working against is bad RNG. The issue isn't that maps aren't sustainable its that the threshold to be sustainable is so tight that you need a very high sample size for people to get there.

If its gonna take 200 maps on average for you to get positive most players don't have 200 maps of a relevant tier, they won't have the currency for said maps and its also a very heavy time investment to clear those 200 maps whereas that isn't a problem if you play 12/hrs a day.

Basically rng is countered by playtime, the longer you play the closer you'll trend to the "average" of whatever the drop-rate is both your bad and good luck will be balanced out.

Edit: and shagsbeard is right everyone has their own definition which doesn't help, for myself its can I keep running the same colour, it was a real struggle early on but i've done enough maps now that my base is good enough I should be ok. Would need truly terrible luck to blow through all of them and while that might happen its unlikely.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

Your right but only when you factor in that what we are working against is bad RNG. The issue isn't that maps aren't sustainable its that the threshold to be sustainable is so tight that you need a very high sample size for people to get there.

If its gonna take 200 maps on average for you to get positive most players don't have 200 maps of a relevant tier, they won't have the currency for said maps and its also a very heavy time investment to clear those 200 maps whereas that isn't a problem if you play 12/hrs a day.

Basically rng is countered by playtime, the longer you play the closer you'll trend to the "average" of whatever the drop-rate is both your bad and good luck will be balanced out.

While that's true, I always have a little fiddling when building up my red map pool, most probably people get discouraged by that and are also not willing to play a toon higher, than 90, which required less, than 30 hours of playtime to reach if you never touch red maps, including the time it takes to get to maps.

Other, than this people tend to exaggerate everything "I did a single T11 map and didn't find 70 T12 drops, it must be impossible nolife RNG that is needed for this".

Like when I read trough reddit comments and there are shit about people playing level 8x toons and not getting red maps, so they have no idea how to reach level 90 makes me scratch my face off, like how long have they been playing the game lol, I still remember getting to 90 or higher on yellow tiers and a very few reds when I had a 20k dps build.

you are right krenderke but Its still tilting if you run a corrupted 8 mod and get nothing even if it is a sample size of 1 :p I suspect this is where a good chunk of the complaints come from for sure.

When/If they add the beastcraft for harbinger/horizon orbs tbh my gripes with current maps will fade as my only problem atm is getting connected maps to drop i'm at around 130 complete but the last ones are proving extremely tough to drop.

The problem with the whole issue is that content shouldn't be so RNG gated in the first place. What happens is that if there is an upswing in luck it feels completely normal and as the game should be, and a mild downswing feels like the game is just awful.

Time has to do with map sustain because you need an xyz amount of time to set up your altas to be able to map sustain and xyz amount of resources to enable it + knowledge/work in upkeeping it.

Doesn't matter if you can sustain red maps after level 90+, 130+ in the altas and you min-max it by taking the time to use silver coins, sextants, preroll every map + vaal, use fragements, wear some mf gear and variety of other min-maxing ways to squeeze out more drops. This is even not mentioning spending hours getting all of your shaped orbs + doing elder/shaper a billion times until you spawn it where you want for the extra mobs/loot.

Even if you do all the above you then have to play xyz amount of hours to "Even out your rng" and play through unlucky streaks.

All the above is large time sink + tons of hassle that you have to upkeep every 2-3 maps. This is in a ladder setting where progress resets every 3 months.

This is the main problem that there are tons of "chores" to do in the game to properly play it that are both extremely rng, time-consuming and annoying to do since you have to constantly do it and trade to upkeep it.

This is comparable to the speed between racers vs a casual player. The top percentage of PoE players can hit maps within 1-2 days where the more average players take anywhere from 4-7 days. There is an incomparable difference between a top percentage player being able to invest hours learning/playing/practicing speeding up rushing through the story and an average player just using it to play period.

But the difference is someone getting to map in 6 hours is a skill-based thing after their fruits of labor and although you can get massive rewards to do so it doesn't feel mandatory just to play through the game.

End-game everybody has to do it and be hassled to death with a large time sink (that may even wall them) to move forward as opposed to just choosing to play less efficiently. People don't mind spending twice the amount of hours to go through the story since they can have fun at their own pace.

They mind having to spend half of their play time of 1-2 hours a day just setting up their altas with chores (or spending a week or more resetting elder since can take many attempts) and having a negative progression that might take 5-10 more hours to even out.