Why is the right side of the tree so devoid of life?

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I was thinking the other day how long it's been since my last 'Evasion needs a rework' rant. Years, I'd say.

I'm going to leave it that way. Let some other sap pick up that spluttering torch.

But I will say this: Evasion as a core defensive stat was a mistake. It's clunky and useless against far too many damage types. Dodge is the mechanic GGG should have used to simulate evading enemies. And even then we now have so many 'new' types of damage that neither evasion nor dodge can handle, stuff that is neither traditional attack nor traditional spell.

Stacked defences are fine but we of the East don't really get offered that. EV/ES is less stacked defence forming a rigorous survival basis than it is two sources of supplementary defence smooshed together.

Without high life or CI, you're missing that crucial angle that handles shit like non-spell sources of damage (chaos and physical DoTs being the big pains) and big hits. Which is right now GGG's answer to the West side of the Skilldrasil's durability. Sucks to be us.

*shrug*

Evasion and armor were made for the game at its initial stages, YEARS ago when GGG envisioned it as a much slower game; This was a time when Single target skills weren't so utterly outclassed and the enemy groups were smaller and you cleared things much slower.
This was a time when piety was the highest enemy in the game and damage was much lower, as was HP.
you were intended to die to much slower, more gradual damage than you do now, so evasion and armor were roughly even-- Evasion wasn't one shot like it is now and had time to even out the damage over time, unlike now where you can't even out the damage because that one hit kills you.


Evasion CAN work, but only if GGG fundamentally changed the game so its not about one shots, and they'd need to add in some easy to gain secondary defenses to go on top of Primary defenses.

...Yeah, those rants I mentioned I made years ago? Sort of all about that. But thanks for clarifying. Now put that torch down before you become that sap I was talking about. :P

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Tortunga wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Raw life is shit compared to stacked defences imo. Hybrid defence builds are probably the strongest defences in the game, so far beyond a life stacker or a single defence type like pure es, ev or ar. How often do you see them? Well I play them all the time, see them elsewhere? Not often, people usually play like mathil type setups now, get 5k life and all the damage, die every other day and either accept it or come to the forums to bitch about how the game is full of 1 shots.

Armour and evasion on their own are terrible, I certainly wouldnt play them on a serious character. Together as a hybrid they re amazing, and probably less than 2% of people who play this game truly know that because less than 2% have probably ever tried it enough to do it right.

How is hybrid defences better then raw life or focused on one defence? Evasion/armour both got the problem that it isn't very effective against large hits, as evasion doesn't reduce hit damage taken (just the number of hits you take), and armour becomes less effective the larger the hit is (and doesn't do anything against elemental hits). Combining them is on paper the worst thing you can do at the moment; sure you will be pretty much immune to smaller hits, but against large hits you are a lot worse off then a pure armour or a pure evasion/dodge character. You are more likely to get hit then a pure evasion/dodge char, and you will take more damage from the hit as a pure armour guy. I have never personally tested it, as everyone tells how bad it is, but on paper you will need a very high amount of evasion and armour to make it work.

you have fundamental flaws with how you think defences work. Armour is actually effective against big hits and on paper, if you do the math, armour + evasion is so far beyond either pure armour or pure evasion that its not even competitive. Everyone tells how bad it is? Who? Youre just presuming stuff, you know who told you that? Someone like you who knows the same things you know and has never even tried it, never done the math on it. Combining them is the worst thing you can do? Are you crazy?

Heres how armour and evasion works, either you use both at once, or you use armour and replace evasion with block or you use evasion and replace armour with a lightning coil. Evasion + dodge on its own or armour + endurance on its own are so bad compared to those options that theyre not even a consideration, with those other options on the table you would never consider them if you actually wanted a tanky build, thats how bad they are in comparison. Have you never noticed how all these people who think you only do one or the other also think both are total shit that arnt worth using?

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Tortunga wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

I dont think hc ladder is a very good place to judge things tbh, youre talking early league budget ladder pushing by players who often dont really take time to experiment with stuff, they do whats cheap and what they know, what they know is simple and its enough to mostly work.

The hc ladder is the best place to look, end especially early on in the leage

its really not mate. The gear poverty of early league, the gear poverty of hc league, the doubt of hedging a build on specific rare item stats among a group of players who cant afford to really try stuff too far outside their safespace. Spells are king for racing because they dont rely on weapons, the damage is gem level based, are spells always the best thing u can do damage wise? No, not at all, but the meta of racing is a warped, restricted environment. When ur talking about people racing early ladder in hc there are so many limiting pressures and rng/risk mitigation going on in that meta that no, early league hc ladder is in no way a good indication of what is really good and bad in the game mechanically overall. Looking at that to judge what are the best defences is like looking at what homeless people eat to judge what the best food in the city is "because theyre the ones who are most hungry". It doesnt work like that.

I watch a lot of hc streamers and I virtually never see them making what I know to be the most tanky types of builds, often their builds are glass as hell, you see them running around with mom type setups having 8k combined life and unreserved mana, literally death trap defence because its cheap, its easy, its low gear demand and theyre skilled enough to probably get away with it as long as they cannon down the content chaining fast maps often using totems or summons etc. Theyre built for speed with just enough defence for a highly skilled player like that to have a 50/50 chance of making it to the finish line without getting obliterated.

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Tortunga wrote:

I'm sure most of them know the game better then me or you.

I seriously doubt that statement.

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Tortunga wrote:

I'm sure most of them know the game better then me or you. They theorycraft/try things out a lot more then you think they do. Taken Nugi as example (The guy I watch the most as well :p), all his builds I have seen this league so far have been life based with high leech/regen builds; sure some of them got some evasion/dodge or armour to support the life pool, but the core defence of every build is life and regen stacking.

I gave nugi as an example of one of the few people among those who really does try a lot of stuff out and knows an awful lot about the wider game. Ive been watching nugi since d3 before this game even went into open beta. After all these years watching him Ive got no reason to suspect nugi knows more about this game than I do or has any more first hand experience. He knows a lot and has done a lot, I think we have a comparable level of knowledge and experience, different, but roughly the same in quantity. I take nothing away from him, nugis my favourite streamer and I have the upmost respect for him and his knowledge as a guy and as a player.


All my life based builds stack high life and regen along with high leech, so do most of my ci builds. Where is this idea coming from that you wouldnt do that on a build that has defences? that you would get defences instead of stacking life and regen? You get defence as well as, not instead of.

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Tortunga wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

well, that wasnt the point, Im not sure what relevence it has either. Why would u have 4k hp? Of course you need solid life, that doesnt impact your ability to also get defences at all.

if every build needs a solid amount of Life (and alright 4k is to low, but 5K/5.5k is pretty reasonable), even if they heavily invest in other defences, then defences are just not working. Somebody with 75% block change, 20k armour, and 20k evasion, but only 5k Life should be able to survive as much as a 8-9k Life/ES build with just a granite running. And currently that is just not case, as a granite on it's own is enough to absorb smaller hits, while all the stacked defences won't help you against a large hit when it goes trough.

Why should 5k life be able to survive anything? 5k life is too low, youre into 1 shot/instagibbed by ele spell damage territory with that kind of life pool. The reality of the difference is more like a 7k life build with stacked defences vs a 7.5k life stacker belly or an 8.4k life stacker kaoms build without defences who take 4x as much damage in an average map. You can adjust those numbers slightly up or down depending just how ham you go on the life but thats the kind of gap between the figures thats realistic in practice.

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If you die with 11k HP out of nowhere you made a mistake. And from own experience and seeing streamers die you most likely didn't had a granite flask running, as most high health builds barely got any armour without it active. Or they had a nasty debuff on, or a boss got Detonated on them (always fun).

Have you ever played an 11k life build? I know exactly what has killed me in all the situations and why. Having a granite flask running? Seeing streamers die?

Ok one thing you got to understand about me, those streamers you watch, Ive played as many hours of this game as them, if not more, and Im just as wealthy as they are, spent just as long grinding high tier maps with high end builds. For every map youve played Ive probably played 100, trust me I know what kills deep into maps and why from extensive first hand experience. If you get instagibbed with 11k hp the mistake you made was not having more layers of defence, a granite or a basalt is standard on every build, you can take for granted thats being used, trust me when I say its gonna take more than that in some situations.

A lot words with little meaning. Tl dr: evasion is good with coil. Armour works because aegis or block. Yea sure snorkle those "argunents" doesnt convince me at all especially since i dont need crapy evasion/armour and doing fine in every content of the game. According to you i have to be a magician doing the impossible.

Because CI covered for it till they fucked that up too.

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zzang wrote:

A lot words with little meaning. Tl dr: evasion is good with coil. Armour works because aegis or block. Yea sure snorkle those "argunents" doesnt convince me at all especially since i dont need crapy evasion/armour and doing fine in every content of the game. According to you i have to be a magician doing the impossible.

convince you of what? what is it you think im trying to convince you of?

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

you have fundamental flaws with how you think defences work. Armour is actually effective against big hits and on paper, if you do the math, armour + evasion is so far beyond either pure armour or pure evasion that its not even competitive. Everyone tells how bad it is? Who? Youre just presuming stuff, you know who told you that? Someone like you who knows the same things you know and has never even tried it, never done the math on it. Combining them is the worst thing you can do? Are you crazy?

Heres how armour and evasion works, either you use both at once, or you use armour and replace evasion with block or you use evasion and replace armour with a lightning coil. Evasion + dodge on its own or armour + endurance on its own are so bad compared to those options that theyre not even a consideration, with those other options on the table you would never consider them if you actually wanted a tanky build, thats how bad they are in comparison. Have you never noticed how all these people who think you only do one or the other also think both are total shit that arnt worth using?

I think you and me got a different definition of being tanky. I play hc exclusively, and so for me being tanky is all about mitigation. Avoidance is nice if you can get it besides mitigation, but never instead of, as it's unreliable.

In this case life + regen stacking is the best defence by far. Armour + endurance charges only works against physical hit damage, and for larger hits you need a lots of armour to make a dent (To half the hit you need 10x as much armour). Evasion/dodge/block are all unreliable.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

its really not mate. The gear poverty of early league, the gear poverty of hc league, the doubt of hedging a build on specific rare item stats among a group of players who cant afford to really try stuff too far outside their safespace.

Your arguments don't match your point at all. Everyone goes for the same items (Max health rolls), so why would items with a bit less health but good defence rolls be scare? People might not list them as frequently as max life rolled items, but as there is pretty much nobody ells looking for these items, their should be a lot more choice and outside of pretty perfect rolled ones, cheaper as well. (Basic supply - demand).

And come on, streamers play the game 8+ hours a day pretty much every day. If hybrid defences or defences besides getting as much life/ES where good, they would know it. It's not some rare secret only you have figured out.

But i'm done. You think defences are fine, as they work as long as you got 7k+ life pool behind it. In my eyes this means defences aren't fine, as they should work as a substitution of life to a certain point, as I find 7k life already a life stacking build, especially if you start from the right side (and without a Kaom's or a belly).

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

convince you of what? what is it you think im trying to convince you of?

Oh right i forgot you trying to have an "honest" and open "discussion" about your opinion. Nevermind dude it never was worth the time. Yeah armour and evasion works if u dont have a lightning coil/ other means of static defenses and block to replace those outdated crap mechanics.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Raw life is shit compared to stacked defences imo. Hybrid defence builds are probably the strongest defences in the game, so far beyond a life stacker or a single defence type like pure es, ev or ar.

Sure, but the point is that no matter what mix of defenses you intend to use, you need a solid eHP pool at the base. You could stack block, dodge and evasion as high as you want, if you only have a 4k life pool and no other mitigation, then you can and will get your fuck smashed in red maps by random mobs. It may take a while, but eventually it will happen.

well, that wasnt the point, Im not sure what relevence it has either. Why would u have 4k hp? Of course you need solid life, that doesnt impact your ability to also get defences at all.

Um, it's kind of what this thread is about? Let me boil it down as much as I can:

- Going full retard on eHP with minimal investment in binary defenses is a perfectly functional approach to survival.
- Going full retard on binary defenses with minimal investment in eHP is suicide.

This makes the ranger area unappealing, as it mostly offers binary defenses and relatively little eHP. That was the issue raised by the OP. What conversation are you having?

Yeah 4k-5k hp I suppose but I do have 99999999999999k dps I find that really really dumb the fuck is the point of other defenses if their so fucking bad is my issue with it.

Higher EHP is good how do you think my slayer lives?

8k EHP with VP it's only defense is it's damage and it's leech that's it. It doesn't have armor; It doeesn't have EV rather barely any EV basically.

My wander is dodge + evasion and you know how it is for RNG it isn't going to fly some dumb shit hits you and 3/4 of your hp gone so if your layer of defense is completely RNG that's not going to work at all. Your core defense in my case is... just HP and it's mindless 90000 billion DPS.

That really doesn't make sense I mean I guess the whole the best defense is the best offense.