PC servers are restarting in:
.
They should be back up in approximately .
Xbox servers are restarting in:
.
They should be back up in approximately .

Random Rambling

There are 2 ways to affect the players power level. Player damage or enemy health.

10 health - 1 damage = 9 health = 10 attacks to kill

10 health - 2 damage = 8 health = 5 attacks to kill

5 health - 1 damage = 4 health = 5 attacks to kill

What happens in a typical game setting? Both variables are increased at the same time.

20 health - 2 damage = 18 health = 10 attacks to kill

The power level of the player has actually stayed the same. The feeling of improvement comes from the delay of power. AKA leveling up.

10 health - 1 damage = 9 health = 10 attacks to kill

20 health - 1 damage = 19 health = 20 attacks to kill (Monster level up)

20 health - 2 damage = 18 health = 10 attacks to kill (Player level up)

I was interested in a single variable system. A constant player damage with variable enemy health.

100 health - 1 damage = 99 health = 100 attacks to kill

90 health - 1 damage = 89 health = 90 attacks to kill

Player power is still variable even though player damage has not changed. What is interesting, to me, is whether this model can emulate the same "feeling of improvement" as the first model.

How I imagine it could work:

10 health - 1 damage = 9 health = 10 attacks to kill

11 health - 1 damage = 10 health = 11 attacks to kill (Monster level up)

10 health - 1 damage = 9 health = 10 attacks to kill (Player level up)

11 health - 1 damage = 10 health = 11 attacks to kill (Monster level up)

10 health - 1 damage = 9 health = 10 attacks to kill (Player level up)

It appears we can create an infinite "feeling of improvement". While using very reasonable and non-scaling numbers.

I wonder about the longevity of player attention though. I am assuming that the "variety/accomplishment" can be achieved by subjective ratios.
Last edited by SuicideAll on Jan 29, 2018, 2:27:06 AM
Last bumped on Feb 8, 2018, 2:36:48 AM
How does increasing player level decrease monster hp?
What about party play? How much health monster has?

And what does this really achieve, in the end? The both level up system seems to work.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
https://joeduncan123.imgur.com
https://joeduncan1234.imgur.com
Elder Scrolls Online actually does something with the same thought process. Technically speaking your stats get weaker every time you level up and you have to upgrade your attributes/skills/gear to catch up. They did that system so Level 6 friends could in theory reasonably play along with Level 50 Champion 600 friends, while still having a feeling of character progression.

In all practical effects though you will always have a two variable system. You want enemies to feel different, not all the same copy of one monster, and you want player actions/choices to have some impact. The real issues of game design then become what actions players need to perform to adjust their power and what choices lead to stronger enemies. You can scale the math of those actions however you want.
Need game info? Check out the Wiki at: https://www.poewiki.net/

Contact support@grindinggear.com for account issues. Check out How to Report Bugs + Post Images at: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/18347
Last edited by adghar on Jan 29, 2018, 6:21:07 AM
"
Perq wrote:
How does increasing player level decrease monster hp?
What about party play? How much health monster has?

And what does this really achieve, in the end? The both level up system seems to work.


For starters, this is theoretical game design talk. Don't be so closed minded.

"Player level" can be misleading. Imagine you have 4 maps. Complete a map to unlock the next map. Each map gets incrementally harder up to a threshold. Upon completing the third map, the fourth map "resets" the difficulty level to that of the first map.

level 1 map = 1 attack to kill
level 2 map = 2 attacks to kill
level 3 map = 3 attacks to kill
level 1 map = 1 attack to kill

So, completing the level 3 map "levels up" the player. The player isn't actually "leveling up". The player is still experiencing the "feeling of improvement" though.

Party play is not necessarily affected by "player levels". All players are equal in power. It depends which "map" the player has unlocked.

Should monsters have more health in party play? Probably depends on developer preference. The way I'm imaging the situation:

"Enemy should be easier with help from other players."

or

"Enemy should be harder with help from other players. In an effort to encourage team work."

What is the benefit of the single variable system over the multiple variable system? Single variable system is easier to balance. Power creep is impossible. There is more skill expression.

Does the multiple variable system work? Yes and no. The multiple variable system creates item grind (good or bad). The MVS is exposed to "unreasonable scaling". In order to maintain a constant power level, the numbers scale very quickly. For example, items can start with 1 damage, then end up in the millions of damage. It is important to maintain proper ratios to avoid power creep.
"
adghar wrote:


In all practical effects though you will always have a two variable system. You want enemies to feel different, not all the same copy of one monster, and you want player actions/choices to have some impact. The real issues of game design then become what actions players need to perform to adjust their power and what choices lead to stronger enemies. You can scale the math of those actions however you want.


I agree you don't want to copy/paste the same monsters all the time. Single variable system doesn't suffer from that problem any more than the multiple variable system.

What actions do players need to perform to adjust their power? Complete the challenge. For example, clearing a map leads to a guaranteed power increase.

A major difference between the systems is that one is more RNG focused as opposed to skill focused.

For example, DPS checks in a multiple variable system. Equipping your character with better items is the only way to overcome the DPS check.

In a single variable system, "winning" is entirely focused on the players actions. Every attack is equal. DPS checks are overcome by the timing of the players actions. "Damage" is constant. "Per second" is the variable.
"
SuicideAll wrote:
"
Perq wrote:
How does increasing player level decrease monster hp?
What about party play? How much health monster has?

And what does this really achieve, in the end? The both level up system seems to work.


For starters, this is theoretical game design talk. Don't be so closed minded.

"Player level" can be misleading. Imagine you have 4 maps. Complete a map to unlock the next map. Each map gets incrementally harder up to a threshold. Upon completing the third map, the fourth map "resets" the difficulty level to that of the first map.

level 1 map = 1 attack to kill
level 2 map = 2 attacks to kill
level 3 map = 3 attacks to kill
level 1 map = 1 attack to kill

So, completing the level 3 map "levels up" the player. The player isn't actually "leveling up". The player is still experiencing the "feeling of improvement" though.

Party play is not necessarily affected by "player levels". All players are equal in power. It depends which "map" the player has unlocked.


So internally you need to have player level, anyways. And, from player point of view, what is the point of completing maps if they go harder and then easier? How does player even feel the improvement if you're back to square one?

You're looking at wrong genre here. What you are proposing is already present in different games. aRPG, however, are not fit for that.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
https://joeduncan123.imgur.com
https://joeduncan1234.imgur.com
"
Perq wrote:


So internally you need to have player level, anyways. And, from player point of view, what is the point of completing maps if they go harder and then easier? How does player even feel the improvement if you're back to square one?

You're looking at wrong genre here. What you are proposing is already present in different games. aRPG, however, are not fit for that.


Mind giving an example of a different genre?

The feeling of improvement is the same as POE. Player feels strong. Over time player feels weaker. Player levels up and feels strong again.

Instead of player power being RNG it is deterministic.
What's funny about all of this is how the OP conflates the concepts of "player" and "character." The player doesn't have damage (measured in DPS); the player has reaction speed (measured in APM). Leveling systems often ensure characters improve; this character improvement can be utilized by players so they don't need to improve themselves to progress. You're ironically so focused on character power progression it's doubtful you've thought about player skill progression at all.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Feb 6, 2018, 12:29:33 AM
"
ScrotieMcB wrote:
What's funny about all of this is how the OP conflates the concepts of "player" and "character." The player doesn't have damage (measured in DPS); the player has reaction speed (measured in APM). Leveling systems often ensure characters improve; this character improvement can be utilized by players so they don't need to improve themselves to progress. You're ironically so focused on character power progression it's doubtful you've thought about player skill progression at all.


What are your concerns?

Sounds like you are complaining that low skill people will not be good at the game.

Just a thought, health can be allocated based on an experience system. So, low skills can gain a health handicap compared to their environment.

Originally, I considered extra health to come in the form of item grind. Perhaps, it can come with both items and levels. Levels giving whole amounts while items giving percentile increases.

Report Forum Post

Report Account:

Report Type

Additional Info