Trade Manifesto

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themrpid10 wrote:
2019, lets make a game people have to log in and stand around for a dozen hours and also nerf drop rates so they have to participate, what could go wrong?

No incentive for massive botting in this second grader design is there? Who do they think plays these games that has a dozen hours a day to stand around not playing the game and trade?


To be fair, those guys are just currency traders. Actual loot has to be found and made with a fair level of knowledge of the game.

The problem is that most people dont recognize good rare drops. Most people ignore like 5 ex worth of items in every season and in turn make those items worth more. This includes myself.

That said, I prefer an AH if only for currency trade, just so that those guys dont beat the game by just trading currency pretty much.

you can already stand around for hours with the current system, how is AH going to change that? it would actually make it better since it will save you a lot of time. and it wouldn't affect drop rates, because all the good stuff is being posted for trade anyway.

also the argument about how only 10% trading and they would get a massive advantage because of the AH is invalid. 90% don't trade because it's inconvenient or they don't even know about it.

you could give the players their personal vendor they could set up in their hideout, so you still had to come over to them, so it wouldn't be instantaneous. it would be a nice middle ground between the current system and the fully automatic AH
Last edited by Creditor on Jun 2, 2019, 7:48:46 AM

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Creditor wrote:
you can already stand around for hours with the current system, how is AH going to change that? it would actually make it better since it will save you a lot of time. and it wouldn't affect drop rates, because all the good stuff is being posted for trade anyway.

also the argument about how only 10% trading and they would get a massive advantage because of the AH is invalid. 90% don't trade because it's inconvenient or they don't even know about it.

you could give the players their personal vendor they could set up in their hideout, so you still had to come over to them, so it wouldn't be instantaneous. it would be a nice middle ground between the current system and the fully automatic AH


totally agree with you,
most of us casual players even pros,
dont pick every single rare item we see, we might pick some good bases or rings,
but that about it,
and when we pick them up is not "WOW maybe ill get that exact ring i need"
no its wow maybe it can sell for 15c
so i can by myself this Awesome item i wanted for so long.

the reasons why not make Ah are such bu**s***.
Last edited by baka1chan on Jun 2, 2019, 11:55:05 AM
Easy trade reduces the number of times a character improves their items.
I improve my items, only once i hit a barrier, and there is a lot of people like me, so no it wont change in the slightest the number of trades i make,
it might actually increase them, because ill have more opportunities, to get a slightly better item, once i got extra 20c.

As for item pickups... have you ever watched you'r player base?
99.999% of items are never getting picked.
the are mostly useless and no one have the time to identify them.
people pick up Base items, or some easy to sell items like rings or amulets.

i never in my entire year of poe picked item in hope it would be perfect for my build at least not in 70+.
in early game sure i picked some rares to swap up.
but i doubt it would change with AH.
because
1. people wont craft gear for level 62-
2. people wont bother getting expensive gear for 62-
3. people need to lower prices 62- because the demand lower.
4. the same prices as and the same quantity would remain.

as for 62+:
same goes lower grade items, and high grade.
the number of demand would grow because more people can trade.
so prices would go up right?
but there is also more items for sale because more people can trade.
prices stay the same end of story.



The last argument!!
Trading IS NOT ABOUT ACTUALL TRADING!
its about Finding that piece of gear you need that would give you the best stats for the best price.

unless you need unique, you would be like yeah i need that unqiue and just get it, as you did always. uniques are easy to trade.

and rares, Good rares are RARE because they RARE.
it hard to craft or find them,
and people who know the value of those rares would be the same people that sell them anyway.
so the way they sell them make no difference what so ever.
it just make it easier to get once you found the perfect rare item.

that it if someone have anyway to, counter argue my claim feel free,
there is no way auction system would make me waste less time searching for a good rare. ( the only way by making offline character appear in the auction so there is more items for sale then before, so the fix would be make it possible to buy from you only while you online , and even then i doubt it would change the Economy in a meaningful way.)

INVALID ARGUMENT.


Easy trade means reducing drop rates
Imagine this, a game where there is a lot of "fake AH" and no actual one in the game, trading is possible but is still a pain-full procedure.
what we get... Cheap items are not getting sold because no one have time to sell them,
and all the worth item are sold by the alternative AH,

now add AH to this game.
the only real difference would be cheap items would actually get even cheaper.
(because you would actually be able to buy them by their lowest price, vs being lucky to get by the lowest).
and items that worth money would most likely stay the same price value.

INVALID ARGUMENT

Easy trade would make the disparity between different players too great
This is the most wrong claim of all, the only real change AH would make,
is item would sell faster, buying and selling currency would happen faster.
people who never traded because they didn't know the sites, would actually make more demand, and more items would sell once again.

now, currently the best way of making money is by crafting,
to craft you need to farm for currency, buying currency is B*** S***
so most players would not try to get Alcs, Chromas, fusings etc...
they would prefer not to even engage with the system because it just hard to get the different types of currency, and now they never would enjoy a huge part of poe.
by the way i'm one of those people i vaguely know how to craft, but getting all the currency can alone make me quit the game.
even if i have 3ex, to convert them to fusing to craft 6 link is a nightmare.


Easy trade allows for greater abuse by automation
the only valid argument,
but then again
this vs more players that enjoy the game + more noob friendly.



There is literally no argument that cant be countered against AH
except automation.
with really wont change much anyway.
watch runescape
the AH made a huge quality of life leap for them.
the best addition to the game,
sure there is some bots but they hardly even make a difference.
and the items in runescape are static, so bots would most likely wont be able to buy all the "super good items" they would flip currency and and uniques while rares are the actually gems of poe.
until some crazy NN algoritem would come up that can identify every single flippable rare.
there wont be a problem.
Last edited by baka1chan on Jun 2, 2019, 12:10:16 PM
La verdad veo mas simple y mas cómodo de usar poetrade para comerciar me es mas sencillo buscar las cosas con mas rapidez, pero si conseguís hacer algo parecido a la otra y así se eliminan los bots que solo estropean el comercio me cambiaría encantado, es mas si con la eliminación de otras paginas y dejando solo la oficial elimináis a los bots yo pagaría por ello,acepto buscar mas lento con la eliminación de esa escoria de gente.
Shishe, Crowley es puto rey del infierno
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baka1chan wrote:
...


I think they either don't know how to make an AH or they don't want to invest resources into this.
The manifesto doesn't point this out specifically but needless to say literally all of these problems can be worked around and are entirely, 100% solvable, it just requires time (and therefor money).

Just as a small example, efficient trading will on average speed up how fast players improve their gear and Chris is afraid that people are done with content too fast and quit, all valid concerns, but the problem has multiple ways to be completely fixed, as in such that it is not an issue at all anymore.

For example:
- adding more content to offset the increase in speed. More map tiers that are more difficult and require better gear. Harder end game bosses that require better gear.
- instead of adding more content, make existing content harder so that even though people are improving their gear faster, it won't make a difference in how fast they progress because they need to get more powerful map tier by map tier until they're able to beat the game
- Reduce drop rates of 'good stuff' that can't be reliably found solo anyways, so its average currency value increases and player progression speed is countered by needing to acquire more currency before upgrading. The primary concern with nerfing drop rates is for general item drops: If you do it to counter how much faster people upgrade it can lead to a situation where it's not reliable to find anything solo anymore. But this fix can be applied to items where this is already the case that are nevertheless important for popular builds, like many of the rare uniques.
- ... and so on and so forth

The same is the case for all the other problems they've mentioned. There's not a single problem that better trading brings that they couldn't deal with somehow if they really wanted to.

I'm sure their leads are aware of this and just don't like the idea of a buyout market in general. Unfortunately I think they heavily underestimate how much people hate the process of trading right now - you decided trade should be in the game so you should really make it as frictionless as possible so people can actually enjoy playing the game.
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heishe wrote:
Just as a small example, efficient trading will on average speed up how fast players improve their gear and Chris is afraid that people are done with content too fast and quit, all valid concerns, but the problem has multiple ways to be completely fixed, as in such that it is not an issue at all anymore.

Current trade is geared towards those that are online a lot, have progressed a lot and don't mind wasting time with trading.

They are also the ones that go through content too fast, as they are able to buy any gear they need.

This in contrast to a large chunk of the player base that don't have good enough gear for endgame content, mainly because they don't sell items and don't increase their wealth that way.

So GGG has created their own problem and each league the gap between the top 5% and the rest will only get bigger.

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heishe wrote:
it just requires time (and therefor money)

Which is why I'm not spending any more money until they improve trading. There are so many easy improvements that can be done, yet GGG sticks with the horrible way it currently is. All in the name of "player interaction". Like people are having conversations during trade...
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PlatoniusIII wrote:
All in the name of "player interaction". Like people are having conversations during trade...



whisper...no response
whisper...no response
whisper...no response
whisper...no response
whisper...no response
whisper...no response
whisper...invite...trade..."ty" / "t4t"

done


those deep and very meaningful interactions, yes yes :D
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Tyrion2 wrote:
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PlatoniusIII wrote:
All in the name of "player interaction". Like people are having conversations during trade...



whisper...no response
whisper...no response
whisper...no response
whisper...no response
whisper...no response
whisper...no response
whisper...invite...trade..."ty" / "t4t"

done


those deep and very meaningful interactions, yes yes :D


Exactly my point, i'm starting to getting piss off by thoses copy/pasta all time. And yet, you still have some "ty" sometimes, but most of the time, ppl just gtfo of your hideout then leave the party without even exchanging a single word, just a copy/pasta.

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