Trade Manifesto

foreversense wrote:


The base idea sounds very nice indeed. I would recommend a few alterations though:

The 'Annex' area can't be decorated at all, also there is only a single Annex area available, no different layouts. This solves loading issues and lag for players with bad connections, also it's supposed to be fully functional, not tidy.

That's a bad idea, it has been proven that CAPTCHA tests are only a minor nuisance for automated software. The majority of those is highly non-functional, while some of them actually impede the use by real people.

This is the same with your system as the underlying symbols are easily detected by a system, the movement around them isn't an issue, just takes a small change in coding for the program (bot) to 'see' which it actually is. Shape detection rather then going by a clear picture of it.

Otherwise, such a trading 'HUB'/'Annex'/whatever is a good solution for many issues and can definitely be build upon.
GGG balance is like getting a pizza which is burnt on the sides, raw in the middle and misses the most of the toppings.
Then upon sending it back you get a raw side, burnt middle and enough toppings to drench everything in grease.
Everything fixed but still broken.
Putting some blur lines or italic font on the veiled words will make boots to detect the information harder. But using a different language that is newly invented with a lot of symbols will present problems for the AI :) in my opinion
Last edited by foreversense on Apr 30, 2019, 9:17:30 AM
Just want to say again what a mess of horseshit and lies this manifesto is.

I'm almost 40 years old, I'm never going to spend 12 hours logged in and not playing the game in order to trade.

The last 4 people I 'bought' something from, the interaction was exactly the same down to the timing. I wouldn't be surprised if there is already some kind of bot program the upper traders are using that does exactly what the rest of the player base is wanting, an easy way to list and buyout things. I don't care what MTX they have I honestly didn't even notice. There was never any interaction besides the "hey I want this", party, trade invite, bye. I find it hilarious and sad that they can't see how stupid this entire system is, and the ironic part is they gate and gut drop rates everywhere based on this flawed premise which ends up driving people away and costing them money and fans.
Of course they are botting, esp currency traders, look at these whales who have many thousands of chaos and TONS of other currencies, they are 100% botting, flipping crazy amount of different currencies same time. These accounts usually newly registered, have 0 forum posts, but already have tons of currency and expensive items. Sometimes there are whole guild full of cheaters who dumping currenсy and selling it. GGG can look at this and ban them all but they don't or doing that too slow.

By the way in every clan/guild where I was one or more people was using some kind of bots, like farming during day, bot selling during night, fully automated maps sale, or other bots that follows player just to provide group IIQ. Or something else unfair... This is why I hate guilds in PoE, they are locus of c̶o̶r̶r̶u̶p̶t̶i̶o̶n cheaters and scammers who parasitizing the game. Of course they can cooperate outside of guilds but right now guilds equals cheaters, at least big ones.
Cheaters are killing game economy, not powerful builds or items. Game also needs some regulation in trade system, like how many currency one player can receive from other player or give to others players per day. Legal AH can solve this.

Interactions? We have enough interaction in global chat and 820 parties, trade interactions outside of usual routine rarely comes into something good and usually irritates a lot. Whet I see "Hi" from buyers I already preparing for some bullshit that takes my time, strange questions or attempts to scam. Sometimes player don't know how trade work, sometimes player have slow HDD or game crashes and I lost portals on difficult map. Trading interactions is a everyone eager to skip.
Last edited by K4r4k4s4 on May 3, 2019, 9:40:34 AM
I'm usually one of the first people to join gripe movements. I'm not easily satisfied in many cases when it comes to games and I'm well aware my expectations are generally higher and sometimes impossible to meet but honestly the trading system doesn't bother me at all. I'm glad to have what we do :/ It's not hard for me to realize when trading is becoming a time sink and I just go back to playing. Not entirely sure why I'm so much of a different gamer when I'm on Path. I have plenty of things about the game I don't like or I think can be better but I still play basically everyday I can.

The content isn't gated by bad drops, trading issues etc. Trust me on this one. I learned from friends who are VERY good at the game and learned that I'm my biggest problem with Path. They get a char to 90 with the Atlas filled and by the time I'm 93 they've leveled another character to 93 and are buying gear at 4ex a piece while I'm struggling to sell 2-5c random finds. Their craft bench is 90% by the time mine is 50 and I'm probably playing more than them as well by at least 25%-30%. They do all this accessing the trade market very minimally only when a piece of gear is desperately in need of upgrade, free time/feeling sluggish OR when the item can't be found manually in reasonable time or procured some other way.

If you wanna play Path and be top tier you're gonna have to move and think like a top tier player. You're gonna run Delve when your Sulphite is nearing cap so you don't overflow and waste Niko encounters, place memories and as soon as the walkway is finished run Nexus etc etc. I honestly couldn't imagine this game being as engaging or fulfilling if changes were made to drastically reduce the gap between tier 1 and tier 6 players..

In any case the manifesto merely clears up all I wanted to know which was why GGG has chose not to task themselves with it's implementation and I think we can all agree that for the most part their decision making (OUTSIDE of Synthesis league mechanics) have all been pretty good.
This is so confusing.

You talk about the problems of making trade easier, and then you launch your own trading website ?

If I had an Ingame trading system where I could buy from offline players, I would get items faster, that's a fact. "Easier" is a very broad statement. The true measurement here is speed.

So...what do I do, as I don't benefit from an AH ? Well, I refresh trading page, I send back messages to people that are supposed to be online but don't answer...until I get what I need.

So I don't spend more time playing the game than if the trade was easier. I actually spend much less time. Clunky trade doesn't prevent me from trading. It's just clunky. It's just annoying and boring.

Making trade clunky hoping your players spend more time playing the game is really bad design.

Also : it looks like you are afraid of BOTs, exploits and other hacking forms that could happen in AH.
I'd have thought that you could handle these kinds of threats, from a company like yours. This is not beta anymore. Your game is played by millions of players. I'm pretty sure you could have a online security department.
When I hear "there could be bots" I just wanna answer "Welcome to the Internet". Why should we make banks then ? There could be robbers !
Last edited by achmoye on May 3, 2019, 12:39:56 PM
Last edited by Dom1nati0n on Jun 19, 2019, 4:51:42 AM
Im a minority case here, i know... i dont expect anybody to read this (nor agree, if they do (prolly wouldnt be back to this thread to know one way or another, anyway)). im just typing for the sake of lubing up by keyboard buttons i suppose.

i love poe, for its trading tbh. I was 'over it,' killing monsters in the same areas, doin the same shit and the same maps; etc.. back when tormented spirits were introduced. literally the only reason im still here, is bc i have poe up all the time, just to listen for whispers; alt tabbed. to call me a 'casual' would be an improvement in most players eyes.

things that i find fun NOWADAYS in poe, almost never have anything to do with leveling a character, killing monsters, theory crafting, etc. (typical stuff). i've easily spent 6hrs or more today, on poe-related endeavors - literally havnt killed a monster since yesterday, though.

trading - even for someone who, historically speaking, enjoys it - can be frustrating for sure (especially when it comes to currency purchases (simple solution = sit down for a bit and commit to getting larger quantities at at time; so i dont have to go out buying more, all the time)). go convert 10ex-15ex of exalts into other shit, in one sitting. good to go for quite some time usually. simple.

ive fallen victim to scams, in the past - or, rather... i experienced moments of temporary down syndrome, where i carelessly clicked accept too fast, when trading. only 2 or 3 times (since 2013) can i think of this happening and a person not agreeing to correct whatever would-be-scam, that just occurred (gotta give poe community props on this, btw - generally, considerate players out there). i have no gripes for the system tho in these cases. nobody to blame but myself. maybe one's ability to not rip one's self off by falling prey to impatient clicking and obvious price manipulating, itself, is a skill..

speaking of price manipulation... i like it! (gasp! i kno...). thats not to say i think its the most respectable thing to do out there, for sure; however, i DO like that the ability for players to attempt at doing so, is an option lol. poe is unique in its approach, to trading... GGG is not here to hold everyones hands and cater to the inefficiencies/inconveniences in the market. Their Laissez-faire approach to the situation is what i think is so awesome, basically. I've had friends try to get me into warframe, for instance... they try to lure me with descriptions of the trading environment. their attempts are counterproductive... systems that (i hear) are in place, in other games, sound more or less, like shit kids should be playing. i suspect the average age of poe players is something like 35'ish? I like to think we could think of solutions around our problems, for a large % of them that exist (especially considering how in-depth poe is; theres always a way to make a 'buck' out there - trading or not). Sell services; farm ____ boss/area; get 'headhunter vision' out of your eyes, and go check out some things (simple white items/bases, for instance (no spoilers, here)) whose value can easily exceed 2x that of a hh's.

I hate to say it (sort of), but most people, honestly dont look in the obscure corners of wraeclast's items, mods, etc. I understand - its a video game... u wanna kill shit, level up, upgrade gear, etc. however, this game involves finding information and opportunity out there, where others arent looking in many cases. in an inefficient market, where profits do exist... these inefficiencies can be thought of as knowledge gaps... u know something someone else doesnt. thats why you might find yourself staring at an undervalued item, and buy it from the seller, willingly paying the price they had for its buyout. they say 't4t' or w/e; and this is often referred to as 'scamming.' to me, it jus sounds like someone did their homework, and someone else didnt. literally, awesome for them. ppl rag on the first few ppl who knew how to properly metacraft and shit, making +3bows/staves, pref/suff blocking; etc.. hell, i (and probably you, too) wish it was me! do i think badly of these players, for profiting off of a secret they themselves, figured out before (apparently) anybody else, basically? NOPE! i can only kick myself, for not putting the clues together, like THEY DID. if not for voc, most players might STILL be oblivious to many of those finer details. the majority of players should thank him, really.

anyways... if killing mobs and exploring new areas/maps/etc. are 'your thing,' and trading is not... lol go play any other game; because trading, items (and their values), obtaining gg shit is LITERALLY what this game revolves around... if for no other reason, than to let players test how far their new ideas for character-builds can go, with all these (insert hard to acquire items), they got. Anybody playing SSF --- how many successfully double corrupted items; do they have... how many triple anger/hatred/etc. watchers eyes do they have? these players play ssf to separate themselves from trade - nothing wrong with that. however, when it comes time to truly test whats possible for w/e build they have in mind... its literally a funny thought, to imagine what kinda hours of gameplay they'd have to put in, to make any/all of the gg shit obtainable... u dont get these items with RNG... RNG loves NOBODY. To seriously think that just busting barrels and killing monsters can consistently net you 10's of exalts a day, or more... that to me sounds crazy af. then again, im jus a sub-par casual so wtf do i kno (forreal, kinda).

to get the items u want, with specific mods or whatever - of the huge pools of affixes out there for items - do not A) hope to find it dropping; or B) try to craft it urself (except in rare crafting cases; usually bc prices of a base (ie- legacy or something, that u already own)). to get the items - obviously, i know - trading for that (say, triple hatred eye), is basically the only viable method for obtaining it. most of us came from diablo 2 (yes, 'two') (damn near all of us, probably). how many 4o's eth vortex shields; jah/ber/zod/ohm/sur/etc. did YOU find on the ground? of ALL you ever owned over the decade(s) playing that game, maybe a couple at best. there was no auction house. there were only items, which you convert into HR's by trading with other players (like exalts/mirrors). was there ever a public outcry of 'AH this' or 'AH that,' back then (or even to this day)? nope. was it literally one of the most timeless games uve ever played to date? if you're even on this website reading this, id wager 'yes,' is your answer. there were even far more scams and underhanded tricks there, then in poe BY FAR... ever seen your character, start sprinting across a1 town, throwing literally all it owned on the ground, only to find inventory empty and your game shutting off? what about the tal rasha (purple armor) scams? at least poe forces you to mouse over shit before accepting (which as mentioned, even i have habitually f*d myself over, doing so too quickly, scamming myself). as a player, i become a better one by learning to avoid that, among other shit (ie- whos price fixing, what; how to tell (and dictate its aprox, actual value); and all the other typical complaints about poe's trading system). want a better trading experience? develop yourself, as a player, to become a better trader. doesnt sound like fun? welp... its literally the heart and soul of non-ssf gameplay, and thinking its going to be revolutionized in any way (ie- AH implementation, like, say, d3 had), is a wish you'll likely never see granted.

learning how to price things, what matters on what and why (even, 'when,' bc values always fluctuate, for EVERYTHING in this game), is not easy. i dont think it was ever meant to be. ask any new player what the hardest thing to them is, after playing for a month or two... 10ex says its 'that.' lol. that is arguably THE challenge most unique to poe, vs. any other mob-killing, hackNslash out there... this involves reading and doing research. successfully doing so and finding a rewarding tidbit of info, which u profit from is more rewarding to me, than running 983298 goddamn linear-style, meta maps and shit. that stuff gets far to repetitive and brain-dead boring, imo. again, its a game i know; and i dont expect many players to agree. its w/e. we all play for different reasons. but 'bricking' the current trading system for those who actually like it how it is, would be synonymous, perhaps; to changing the passive tree into the skill/rune system of d3... the tree, as much as trading, IS what makes poe, 'poe.' the trading system isnt perfect, there are certainly SOME areas it could improve... i dont feel like whispering 982398 ppl to get a handful of fossils for instance, 2hrs later. i DO however, know a couple trustworthy ppl, that 1ex could go a 'long way,' with... ever considered paying people said 1ex, to do that for you, then? "heres my money... go get as many of ____ fossils/cards/whatever as you can. come back and you get 30% of that total cost, as profit." (something along those lines). honestly, this is a service i wish i knew more candidates (trustworthy ones) for. id rather pay for that, than like a lab carry in a lot of cases. Cant afford to do that, tho? trade better; farm faster - whatever u think is best, to get that done. Still not enough? Perhaps, then... YOU'RE the best candidate to take the free money, for dealing with all (my/someone) else's whispers, then! Boom - sounds like u found one more (of many, many, many) ways to make money in poe. its not so bad; but unfortunately for many, DOES require legwork outside of killing shit. again, grown men and all - figure some thing out; or kill monsters and enjoy ground-gear u find. w/e you enjoy in this game - jus do it. if its not trading, dont do it! You'll have much more time to kill monsters, and maybe youd find it fun to creatively ponder, how exactly you'll kill uber elder, with the items you find on the ground. THAT - if anything - would take some fucking homework, buddy.

that said, my keyboards pretty damn lubed up at this point. may this post forever find its way into the void of posts and comments, to never be found. tho ggg drops the ball from time to time (as of late (3.6), in particular, it seems). they've had a hell of a run; they always come back with solutions and they stick to their original vision for the game, for most of (nearly all) what they had in mind for the game upon creating it, as they do so (which is cool imo)). its 2019... theres still no AH. the complaints have existed for the better half of one decade - go look, if u havtn already. reddit, the forums, google = friend (you know this... u play fuckin poe, for gods sake). there, im sure youll find convincing evidence that trading fundamentals in poe are here to stay. ban the farming bots (cat n mouse game, will alwys exist), implement things such as afk/dnd detection for trading websites (they've begun doing), and touch up the last few kinks to make the brokering b/w buyers and sellers a little smoother and all's good. Still want an AH? prolly just... refrain from playing poe, i guess. i kno thats exactly what id do, in the opposite scenario; so wouldnt blame ya! if ppl wanna price fix... fine, let em enjoy 'theory crafting' on how to do so, best; if that's what they think is fun about poe. if ppl wanna charge insane high prices for something, 'just because;' then let them, knowing it wont sell. If YOU wanna charge those high prices, knowing it wont sell bc u dgaf... have at it! dont wanna leave ur map for 2c trade? cant blame ya (tho you might do everyone, including yourself, a service; by not listing the 2c thing in the first place). sure some stuff kinda sucks, when ur caught on the wrong end of it. so does rolling a map, not reading the mods, and jumping in only to one-shot urself to reflect... should we, then; flood the forums/reddit/etc, with anti-reflect mod demands? u can answer that, urself.

Laissez-faire <--- best way. keep it up ggg (know u will).

lol -------------- had to quote this, btw...

K4r4k4s4 wrote:
Whet I see "Hi" from buyers I already preparing for some bullshit that takes my time, strange questions or attempts to scam.

+1 haha

trolled Fox News in an interview... wound up famous. thx for the virility humans!
"...I'm one of the heroes." lol
I really want to enjoy poe but again trading system really pain and burn out me so much.
GGG must find way to delete all bots from game and economy will be almost fully fixed and trade become better
Also GGG must stop with league that require such long time to complete such as memory runs where it takes so much time until u done... thats ruin trade as no1 will w8 so long
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