Trade Manifesto

Certain items like maps should be available at in game vendors.
Completed 16 Challengesst0rmie wrote:
Completed 20 ChallengesNikuksis wrote:
I like the idea of SSF, but i cant use it since i playing with my wife in party.

If there will be some party-self-found it could be awesome.

Just play non-SSF, party with your wife and nobody else, and don't trade. Unless you were expecting to be topping leaderboards there's no difference between "SSF League" and just "not partying or trading".

This is essentially the same as saying "if you want permadeath, just delete your character after death", or "if you want more challenge, just play a suboptimal build". Such ideas don't work. Most people will use every advantage current mechanics gives them even if they don't like those mechanics exist in the first place. I wouldn't be able to "simulate" SSF this way because after many days of grinding for terminus est i need i'd say "screw that i'll use poetrade just this once".
I agree with the baseline of this post, it is true that instant trading would either make the game too easy if currency drops were frequent enough or an unpleasant chore for anyone with bad currency-Rng-luck who doesn't trade a lot (if Mobs and drops are balanced around trading for gear the way there are atm)

However i think there's one big but solveable Issue with the way GGG handles trading right now:
Trading isn't made non-instant by making it "harder" to access, nor by making the actual trades take some time of effort.

Trade is currenty 'slowed' by being annoying, needlessly obfuscated, 'dangerous' for new players(see the ScamSpamBot ingame Channel labeled 'trade channel') un-fun and generally something very few players look forward to be spending time with.

From my experiences of trying to get friends into this game, the way trading is implemented at the moment is a way of making people more likely to quit the game.
- it's actually a huge compliment to all other parts of this game to keep playing despite being forced to slog through trading on almost every build if you want to reach the endgame before a League ends.

Theese three are in my Opinion the biggest contributors to the fact that many players dread trading:

1. Don't make economic Information about items something new players take a long time to find - Something like <ingame> could've saved one of my friends from quitting the game due to finding out he gave away the most expensive item he ever found to some liar.

2. Pricefixing is the easiest Trade-scam and the one that makes trading a dreadful annoyance for many, many players. This has to be prevented, but the current system heavily encourages this.

3. Playing the game isn't more rewarding than trading, but you're forced to trade a lot if you want to shape your Endgame to be more rewarding.
Buying maps and Chisels all day instead of playing OR being forced to faceroll trivially easy content seems like a punishment, not something you'd expect to get for building your strongest Character.

But there's a solution:

What about an ingame System that doesn't give you the items you want instantly, but still lets you finish the action of trading and resume playing the actual game instantly?

What if it even rewarded you for playing the game if e.g. killing certain things or solving a lab-like gauntlet/puzzle would make your ordered items arrive faster?

I'd really love to see some sort of "Trading Routes"-Expansion,
- items could be bought/sold without scrolling through pages of pricefixers and afks

- items traded are instantly removed from Stash, but the items you get from the other
participant of the Trade don't arrive instantly, but after a delay (which could even be
based an an items worth, rarity, and/or item type)

- reward Players for playing the game: fulfilling certain objectives can reduce the delay.
There are multiple options to implement this;
1. a new Master who gives you Missions to secure Trade Routes.
Theese missions could be a lot more dangerous if the Item you want to arrive faster is
2. Areas on the atlas where completing Maps reduces the delay of certain trades - either
based on itemtype - e.g. Steel Rings arrive faster when clearing Maps that can drop them
3. Currency sink - Spend some Chaos to get the item faster
4. combining Leagues of the past with Trade routes: e.g. a Prophecy that reduces the delay
for your next Trade or a Strongbox that can instantly drop one of the items on your
trade Routes

- If Trading needs to be made less 'easy' still, you could even give Trade routes the Sextant
treatment and Limit the Amount of item deliviers towards a player (with the option of
unlocking more Trade routes by achieving Goals like Bosskills or UberLab)

Any thoughts, additions, etc about this idea?
Ya know, I know this is old now. This is a bunch of malarkey, I've been mulling it over for some time now.

Here's the reality, Trade is easy. If you wanted trade to be hard, then you should have made it a priority in the very early days of development. Once the community takes over, that's it, you will have to actively screw your player base to get the system you want in place.

No one will use a system now that makes trading less accessible. If I can't find exactly what I want, I won't use your tools. If I can't quickly get what I want, I will not use your tools.

If I am forced to use your tools and have a worse and slower trade experience as a result (meaning takes more time, and I don't get exactly what I want), then I would probably just find another game, because you nerfed a part of the game that is already irritating.

Your ship has sailed. You didn't manage this part of Path of Exile correctly from the very beginning, and you lost control.

Now stop pretending acting like you did when you "couldn't implement Lockstep", and give us a real solution, that will give players what they want.
Great that you are sharing your thoughts, but there are several things that I don't agree with:

1. You mentioned that 90% players don't use trading. Are these active players? What is the amount of player * time they spend on POE? As far as I know, all the active players around me use trading frequently (more than 20 times per league). They are your core gamers and money makers. So I don't think your statistic are meaningful.

2. You want players to upgrade items. Since you care so much about casual players, you must know that in average, they only have time to play 2-3 builds per league. Due to the randomness in the upgrade system, even if I chaos spam something really good, it is with super high probability that they can not be used for my builds!

I can buy things for 20 c which requires 200c to get via upgrade. If you want us to upgrade item, make the system more powerful, predictable and most importantly, affordable. (for example, vendors can craft T2 or even T1 with higher price)

3. You are worried about bots corrupting economic system. This is the stupidest reason in your argument. You can get around this problem with so many methods. Adding captcha for each trade or demand that a player can only trade once every 20 seconds.
We are the Mimobot!!!
I wish there was some multiplayer version of SSF where we could create permanent groups with which we can trade items. I like SSF because it lets me play poe and not poe trade but I still like to play with few friends which I can't really do on SSF. I know I can do that on normal season and just agree not to use poe trade but temptation is too strong and I am weak person so it's not an option for me. There are many ways to implement those groups like adding 2-4 weeks cooldown period in which account can't join new group.
Hello. I have been playing for several years now and I am surprised at how long comfortable and obvious things are added to the game.
Today's trading system is extremely uncomfortable for everyone, both for the seller and the buyer.
How do you trade?
I want to buy an item and write to ~10 sellers:
5 does not answer, 2 AFC, 1 dnd, 1 not online and 1 will finally answer.
Then the buyer is loaded into the shelter of the seller, in the process, the game may crash. Then the seller looks for the desired item and finally the transaction is completed.
And the seller is forced to spend a portal, time, to return from the map.
Why it is impossible to make a trading platform as a steam?
You find the right item, pay it, the money goes to the seller, and you add a subject to the inventory.
I'm already tired of trolls, afk, not online, and I spend too much time torturing with trade, instead of just playing.
Please make the game more convenient, and do not clone the leagues at the conveyor speed.
I think want to limit the trade just by making it tedious and obfuscating it is not a good path for this game in my opinion. The reason i play this game is because i can try many build, so trade should be easier to access but limited through in-game mechanic, not by obfuscating. And for making the player progress more slowly, i think other obstacle is more reasonable rather than just making the player not capable to have the item they need through obfuscated market. It is just a huge barrier entry for new player to come to this game, it is hard to recommend this game to my friend just because the trade system. The main selling point for me in this game for me is the many-variant of the build, do not hinder that thing just with the tedious trade system.
In just this case I really hope that Tencent forces GGG to make a decision in the foreseeable future.
After being frustrated with the trade system more than a few times and going through this manifesto more than a few times, there are a few things I need to get off my chest. No offense intended.

First, the elephant in the room: Diablo 3.

When taken as a whole, this manifesto could be summarized as: "We saw the problems the Auction House caused in Diablo 3, so we're trying to avoid similar issues by making trading in PoE possible, but only just."

Diablo 3 had a bunch of problems, and excluding the Real-Money AH, almost none of them were caused by the AH. The AH merely acted as a "clusterfuck multiplier"; I'll try to explain this somewhere below.

Now the specific points:

Items Matter. Trade is Important.
Trade in Path of Exile

In these sections, you talk about the importance of acquiring, keeping, and proving ownership of certain items in ARPGs. And then, you somehow turn it into an argument about how trading is important. Whether you look at it from a "bragging rights" or "sense of accomplishment" perspective, it just doesn't make sense. There's a reason why SSF exists, isn't there?

There's no "glory" in an item you outright bought from someone else, only practicality. The current system is impractical. Simple as that.

Easy trade reduces the number of times a character improves their items.

If you mean endgame progression, people already do that. Because of how hard it is to get the exact sockets, links, and affixes you want, on the specific class and type of item you want, players just make some money, buy / craft the exact items they want, and then go back to making more money to buy the last few BiS items they need, hopefully before the league is over. Once you get a 6L chest with decent affixes, you're practically married to it.

If you mean early/mid-game progression, easy trading doesn't cause fewer upgrades, socket pressure does. Newer players will either stick to their 3L/4L items for longer, foregoing that feeling of incrementally upgrading your gear, or they'll use all the jewelers and fuses they find on said incremental upgrades (a decision they'll sorely regret later in the game).

Experienced players will simply get something like Tabula Rasa (no matter how obnoxious the trading experience is) which completely sidesteps the socket issue, and rush to the endgame where they can finally upgrade to the gear they want. Once. Or twice.

Easy trade would make the disparity between different players too great

I'm having a hard time understanding this section. You're saying that players who regularly trade (despite the terrible system) are vastly more powerful than those who don't, and then go on to claim easier trade (which would encourage more players to participate) would somehow make it... worse?

Wouldn't that be the exact opposite? Wouldn't that be leveling the playing field a bit? Like I said, I'm having a hard time with this section. The logic doesn't add up.

Easy trade allows for greater abuse by automation

Two words: Price fixing.

Translation: Both systems will have their problems. It's just that the current one seems like a great inconvenience for players, and a slight delay for bots.

Bots don't care; they're bots. They don't have to choose between playing Path of Exile and Path of Trading (enjoyment vs. efficiency). They don't get bored / frustrated by archaic systems and shelf the game as a result. Did I mention they're bots?

Easy trade means reducing drop rates

I saved this point for last because I have a bone to pick with this line of thinking. This might be a good time to explain that bit about D3 and the AH I mentioned:

D3's AH not only made the bad itemization in the game more apparent, but it also made it worse, albeit in an indirect way, thanks to this kind of developer philosophy.

Because people couldn't find decent items by simply playing the game, they flocked to the AH, and because everyone and their mother geared their character from the AH, the devs became obsessed with the idea of "preserving the health of the economy" which prevented them from improving drop rates of desirable items. I'm sure you can see the problem here.

I wish, just for once, a developer would simply buck this philosophy, stop obsessively worrying about items being too easy to acquire, and let the players have fun in their own way, with no strings attached, instead of feeling like they have to stay on top of emerging trends and currency exchange rates and all that BS. There's a website dedicated to PoE currency exchange rates FFS. I thought this was an ARPG where we kill monsters and get loot. This is madness. I just want to play this game you made. LET ME PLAY YOUR GAME.


P.S. Don't ask me why I bothered to type this long-ass post which most people won't even read, because I honestly don't know. I had opinions that I wanted to opinion, so I opinion'd.

Thanks to anyone who read all that.

- Self-proclaimed king of level 172 budget builds -
- Theorycrafter extraordinaire (theoretically) -
Last edited by NemoJr on Jul 9, 2018, 9:55:54 PM

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