Trying make sense of new Bleed
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This stuff gives me headache, help me please understanding this stuff, I gonna show you the way how I think of it. Tell me where I am wrong or details that I missed. The goal is to finetune the bleed effect so I am not investing any passive points in something that has no or too little effect while maximizing the effect of bleed on the dps without using any bleed only dps gems for it.
When I try making sense of it I first forget that it is an ailment from outer space that has nothing to do with the hit damage and all and just try to bring it in proportion with the melee hit damage and think of it like an additional "more damage" gem on the hit setup or something instead. And going bleed only or physical melee with res technique only would be rather stupid, because: -pretty much those melee gems giving high bonusses to bleed and melee hits -bleed needs like no special investment for a lot of builds to get, you pretty much get it for free at the sword or axe wheel of the marauder that a lot melee builds utilize -Most of the melee phys nodes increase the damage of both, the hit and the bleed -The other gems, that are damage over time only for bleed, like Swift Affliction do not give more damage than Melee Physical or Brutality does for example So if I would go for a Bleed only scaling build I would pretty much end up with the same gems as with a Hit and Bleed build, except for chance to bleed. It would make absolutely no sense to do that, because I would miss a big portion of my damage without any benefit. The way to go is Hit + Bleed damage as melee phys with res technique. Lets study a case, where it should be easy to bring the bleed damage in relation with the hit damage: Lets say the settings are a character with res techniques 2h Axe Cleave that only deals physical damage. The character has no flat phys added by jewellry or gloves. Every single increased damage node picked on the tree increases melee phys + bleed phys on the same time and only gems are linked to the Cleave attack that scale both, the melee hit and the bleed with the same numbers. Something like Cleave - Maim - Melee Physical Damage - Brutality - Ruthless - Inc Aoe. Additionally, the character skills some extra only increased bleed damage nodes that are in sum exactly as high as the melee physical damage bonus from strength. To sum up that paragraph: The numbers of increased damage and more damage that boosts the melee hit are equivalent to the numbers increased damage and more damage from bleed. In this setting, the damage per second of bleed is exactly 70% of that of one melee hit if the target is not moving, right? If that assumption is wrong then you dont need to read the rest because everything is wrong then. To further simplfy this, we are facetanking a boss who is standing all the time and hit him every second we can with Cleave. We have a 100% bleed chance. We do not care about all the bleed duration and stuff because we gonna Cleave down the boss like every normal player from beginning to the end and hit him with Cleave every single second. The fact that If I would stop hitting him that he would still take damage for the next 5 seconds is completely irrelevant to me, like it is for most facetanking melee builds. I also ignore the fact that the boss armor makes the melee hits weaker, while the bleeding effect is unaffected by it. Then the formula to find out how much more damage bleed in a scenario gives, compared to melee hits only, is simply: (damage from hits per second + bleed per second) / damage from hits per second That means that for 1 attack per second, the hits deal 100 damage and the bleed 70 deals damage. In this case, bleed is like a 70% more damage gem for our hit. (100+70)/100 = 1.7 I bet even an Uul Netol Axe EQ build has more than 1 attack per second . Even a very slow build has like 2 hits per second and then the effect of bleed on the dps gets divided by number of its per second. In 1 second we hit 2 times for 100 damage and bleeding still does only 70 damage. So its (200+70)/200 = 1.35. Now bleed makes our build only have 35% more damage per second. The bleed damage is getting obviously more and more irrelevant for the dps the higher your number of attacks per second are and with 5 attacks per second bleed only counts like a 14% more damage gem to your melee attack in the facetanking, hit all the time bossfight scenario. The perfect attack speed for this perpective of using bleed effect as a more damage multiplier to the hit would be actually 0.2 attacks per seconds. Then, in a 5 second time frame the hit does a 100 damage and the bleed does 5*70 = 350 damage, thus 450/100 = 350% more damage. But there is no melee build that could go that slow. To counter this we got the crimson dance keystone. Now we have 8 instance á 35% damage of the hit. That means with an attack speed of 8/5 = 1.6 hits per second and a bleed chance of 100% we can keep 8 stacks up all the time without uselessly overwriting the bleed stacks. In that case, bleed is dealing 35*8 = 280 damage per second, while a hit still deals 100 damage per second and we have 1.6 attack speed, means we deal 160 damage with hits in a second, so (160 + 280)/160 = 2.75. 175 % more damage per second thanks to bleed. Thats huge, thats more than 2 x 60% MORE gems would give. If I now double the attack speed to 3.2 attacks per second, which is what some 2h playable builds already working with, we get 87.5 % more damage. But that also means that we only need half the chance to bleed for keeping those 8 stacks up if we can trust our RNG :^). You can easily get 45% bleed chance + Crimson Dance by just investing 4 skill point purely into bleeding nodes, thanks to the Red Storm Wheel. tl;dr: Crimson Dance is like always worth it when you go melee phys only build, the faster your weapon is the less damage does bleeding in your overall dps, but also requires less investment to be used optimally, because less investment in the bleed chance is needed and with a too high chance to bleed I would permanently overwrite the current bleed stacks without getting any more damage. Even for builds with high AS, Bleed with Crimson Dance is like at least one good additional Damage gem. Last edited by The_Human_Tornado on Aug 22, 2017, 7:50:37 AM Last bumped on Sep 5, 2017, 1:24:42 PM
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A few points to improve your overall look at this:
Bleed without crimson dance isn't 70% percent of 1 hit per second. Since the strongest bleed applies, it's more likely going to be 70% * 1.5 per second as the crit bleed will be the active one. With Ruthless your active bleed will tend to be double since it'll be the ruthless strike bleed that is active, with crit ruthless probably not having 100% uptime but when it is up it will be noticeably more potent. Crimson dance will to a degree average these these numbers unless your attack speed is so high that you can get 8 ruthless crit bleeds up at once. I'm at work so I won't do the math now but I imagine that's possible for DW builds, probably for 2h as well. For my own personal experience with crit this league; Crimson dance in my mind is better for bosses and players who don't invest much in crit but have some incidental crit chance anyway. I'm running a non crimson gladiator this league using bleeds to clear maps. I don't plan to or want to have to hit groups multiple times so crimson dance makes no sense on the build. Better to drop one big bleed AoE in the middle of a big group and let gratuitous violence finish them off while I'm already moving on to the next pack. I doubt it can compete with the top builds, but I play for fun and this has been one of my more enjoyable builds in recent memory. |
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Crimson dogshit more like it.
Dys an sohm
Rohs an kyn Sahl djahs afah Mah morn narr |
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" Yea thats right. Thanks for that I totally forgot about the effect of Ruthless on Bleed. Do you know the "Bleed overwriting" rule for the 8 stacks of Crimson Dance? I dont know it and I would really like to know it because if its not "the stack that runs out next is overwritten, no matter if higher dps than the current" then you have a chance to end up with only 7 stacks for a moment, even if you build is clocked to have exactly 8 stacks up all the time. " Hi Chi Long Qua :^) |
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Best player in the fucking world.
Dys an sohm
Rohs an kyn Sahl djahs afah Mah morn narr |
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" All bleeds are on a target for their full duration no matter what. Only the top 8 damaging bleeds actually do damage though. If you apply a new bleed and it isn't bigger than any of the 8 active bleeds, it'll sit on a target for its full duration but won't overwrite any current bleed. It will start dealing it's damage if current bleeds run out such that it becomes one of the top 8 bleeds on the target, until it runs it's course or new stronger bleeds are applied that push it back down below the top 8. Bleed is a complex beast. I'll add to this thread with some better analysis when I get on my desktop. |
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" I was really looking forward to this. Did you by chance post it elsewhere? Or did Life impose its bullshit on you? Thanks for the thread input so far! | |
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Bleed got destroyed and Crimson Dance is only proof that GGG have no idea about how bleed should be build on.
Bleed on moving target is like what ? 210% now if I am correct? You go 210% damage already to start with, crimson drop it to 70% only. Then your damage range is like 50% to 100% of damage lets say. Normal bleed will scale mostly from the upper part so 100%, where crimson from the average so 75%. You lose next 25% if not more, depending on your weapon. Then you have crit or not. If you go crit build, lets say 50% chance for +200% damage, then non-crimson dance will deal 200% more damage where crimson dance build will average that to +100%. So you reduce another multiplier. Additionaly you got in game new awesome gem "ruthless blow", it gives you (for easy colculation) increase to the non-crimson bleed of another 100% dmg, where crimson one average that to 33% more. To that you got -50% dmg from crimson dance and 8 stack of it. To sum it up non-crimson: 2,1 x 1 x 3 x 2 = 1260% of your hit damage per second vs crimson: 0,7 x 0,75 x 2 x 1,33 x 0,5 x 8 = 559% of your hit damage per second Also we didnt take into account the reduction of damage per hit when you go into attack speed build to even stack crimson dance fast enough. So no matter what your build is, crimson dance is just failure of keystone. It should be something like "30% less attack speed, 100% more bleed damage". GGG should make keystone that actualy slow you down to maximize bleed mechanic, not speed you up to copy paste (badly) poison mechanic. Last edited by herflik on Sep 5, 2017, 12:58:11 PM
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Someone shared this poeb link with me of a build, that actually can use bleed with crimson dance to deal dmg.
https://pastebin.com/jSNUmpBf Wouldn't play it, but looks usable. |
