First Impression

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AncientZed wrote:

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Strill wrote:

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And if the game design is as such that in order to rectify a mistake you need to start all over again, then it's by no definition good

Nethack, Chess, and most major sports would like to have a few words with you.

If you read a little further you'd see I said "Assuming the game targets casual gamers".

But it does not. At least not primarily.
The game is and has been advertised as a hardcore ARPG, for example at PAX.

This "they should implement talent respecs" topic has been beaten with a stick 2000 times. GGG has already stated they will not implement talent respecs, the current Orbs of Regret and the respec point from quests are only for minor mistakes like misclicks or nights full of heavy drinking. The game is designed to promote the rerolling of a character when you want a new build, if your current build turns out bad then you should be damn sure to take an in depth look at the talent tree before you start blindly putting points in. That being said there really is no "bad build" the game it played how you want, you can make it through merciless with a mara that has 800 health, chaos on the otherhand is an anomaly and shouldn't be taken into account at all.

As for the casual audience argument, this game is not babys first ARPG to be blunt. And if it did turn into a casual ARPG later on down the line myself and many others would be greatly disappointed, maybe even enough to leave and not look back. The idea is to make mistakes, learn from them, and become a better gamer because of it. Just like diablo 2, and diablo 1 before it. Well thought out decisions are rewarded and snap judgements are punished, its the beauty of the genre. If you can't handle the heat, get out of the fire, cause we aren't turning it down just for you.

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dawgman wrote:

This "they should implement talent respecs" topic has been beaten with a stick 2000 times. GGG has already stated they will not implement talent respecs, the current Orbs of Regret and the respec point from quests are only for minor mistakes like misclicks or nights full of heavy drinking. The game is designed to promote the rerolling of a character when you want a new build, if your current build turns out bad then you should be damn sure to take an in depth look at the talent tree before you start blindly putting points in. That being said there really is no "bad build" the game it played how you want, you can make it through merciless with a mara that has 800 health, chaos on the otherhand is an anomaly and shouldn't be taken into account at all.

As for the casual audience argument, this game is not babys first ARPG to be blunt. And if it did turn into a casual ARPG later on down the line myself and many others would be greatly disappointed, maybe even enough to leave and not look back. The idea is to make mistakes, learn from them, and become a better gamer because of it. Just like diablo 2, and diablo 1 before it. Well thought out decisions are rewarded and snap judgements are punished, its the beauty of the genre. If you can't handle the heat, get out of the fire, cause we aren't turning it down just for you.

I think you may have misunderstood what point was made here so let me try to represent my argument.

First off, I would like to agree with you that a game should reward smart decisions a game that does not follow that philosophy will lose interest by the hardcore audience really quickly.

However, I also stated that IMO a good design is "A minute to learn, a life time to master" what i meant by that was that the game should be appealing to everyone because its polished and fun but should also appeal the hardcore gamers who like competitive PVE / PVP.

The problem is, in WoW for example, the original Naxxaramas raid was witnessed by 5% of the general player base and a mere 1.x% got to finish it.
Now how ridicules is that? Spend ALL that time building an amazing raid only to be seen by 1 out of 20 players..
(in the end Blizzard took that raid and recycled it later on to be used again so everyone would experience the great Naxx)

Making a game appealing to the greater audience is good for HC gamers and its good for the general population and also good for the game company.
It's good for HC gamers because HC gamers thrive in a big community. They are turned into heroes. Seriously look at top tier clans in SC they are legends and not only because they are good but because there is someone out there that enjoys watching them play that's usually the rest of the 95% of the players, the casuals.
And of course its good for the company because... Well that's obvious.

A side note, I went a while back to a game developers convention as a developer.
One of the guests there was the ex-CEO of a failed games studio named Funtactix, he said and I quote "We fail because every time some one criticized us we said 'the game is meant for that population' or 'we know but our players base is smarter' or any number of other excuses." he then adds "our audience should have been everyone with the console to play it".

A game that appeals to a large population does not make it easier or less appealing to HC gamers because the 2 can co-exist.
Really I hate going to WoW for examples but lets face it the game is a legend by it's own right we can just learn from it - WoW appeals to everyone.

As for what GGG said about repeccing, I am rather new to the scene, but if GGG said what you claim they said then the game is fundamentally flawed.
Look at D3 for example, blizzard gave you a way to develop your character and compete with it long after you reached max level. Why do you think is that?
Because Blizzard known full well people get attached to their characters (they really do true story) and having to throw it away just feels bad.

Psychologists claim btw that losing a virtual property awaken the same feeling as if you lost something tangible and real.
So what game designer deliberately would make you feel bad by playing his game?
Eventually respeccing is a way to mend mistakes something that has to be given to the players.

I used many statement i claim as facts in this post, i urge you to not believe me and look it up for yourself.In general, its a bad hobby to believe everything you read :)

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AncientZed wrote:

However, I also stated that IMO a good design is "A minute to learn, a life time to master"

Yes, this is a good design approach. However, it is not the only good design approach. There are very good games who need a little bit longer to get into, but then suck you in with their deep mechanics.

Also, GGG has stated that they are going to introduce more features to help players learn the game, such as tutorials or even small videos showing off skills and whatnot in the game itself.

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dawgman wrote:

This "they should implement talent respecs" topic has been beaten with a stick 2000 times. GGG has already stated they will not implement talent respecs, the current Orbs of Regret and the respec point from quests are only for minor mistakes like misclicks or nights full of heavy drinking. The game is designed to promote the rerolling of a character when you want a new build, if your current build turns out bad then you should be damn sure to take an in depth look at the talent tree before you start blindly putting points in. That being said there really is no "bad build" the game it played how you want, you can make it through merciless with a mara that has 800 health, chaos on the otherhand is an anomaly and shouldn't be taken into account at all.

As for the casual audience argument, this game is not babys first ARPG to be blunt. And if it did turn into a casual ARPG later on down the line myself and many others would be greatly disappointed, maybe even enough to leave and not look back. The idea is to make mistakes, learn from them, and become a better gamer because of it. Just like diablo 2, and diablo 1 before it. Well thought out decisions are rewarded and snap judgements are punished, its the beauty of the genre. If you can't handle the heat, get out of the fire, cause we aren't turning it down just for you.

A good game design should help the game to be accessible to beginners, but deep enough for hardcore gamers.
Saying the game is only for hardcore gamers is just lazy. It's not 90's anymore, game developers learnt new things, let's use those.

respecc like titan quest is perfectly fine and balanced.


@dust7: problem is, there are a lot of good games out there (or soon to be released), simple mistakes like that may not keep customers any further, that's why we raised this point.

There are a lot of things that some gamers are going to hate about any game that is ever released.. just like some people love Metallica and others love the Beatles, a few love both to.

My point is, that the argument "this should change otherwise players will leave" is a bit weak, it can be used for any mechanic at all.

I have read post's on these boards about people quitting who complain "All you do is click click click.. boring" and "I hate having to look through all of the drops!" well... that's what a ARPG is. It's like getting upset at a FPS that you can't see your character, or that they put to much emphasis on head shots.

There's a difference between "different taste" and "archaic game design nonsense".

I love hack'n slash, that's why I asked why they didn't do a respecc like Titan Quest...

Titan Quest had a skill tree less punishing than this one, and it still had some kind of respecc (which could become very expensive in the end).

What is the problem of doing it in PoE?


If you want to compare something else, look at League of Legends and Heroes of Newerth, and guess how the elitist hardcore game ends up...

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kodr wrote:

There's a difference between "different taste" and "archaic game design nonsense".

I love hack'n slash, that's why I asked why they didn't do a respecc like Titan Quest...

Titan Quest had a skill tree less punishing than this one, and it still had some kind of respecc (which could become very expensive in the end).

What is the problem of doing it in PoE?


If you want to compare something else, look at League of Legends and Heroes of Newerth, and guess how the elitist hardcore game ends up...

I'm still waiting for someone to give an example of a mistake that forced them to undo more than 12 points. To be perfectly honest, PoE is probably the MOST forgiving system I've yet seen on account of how plentiful respec points are, and how rare it is for a path that has something useful for you to not continue to have useful things.

Just looking at the witch tree, every single direction leading directly off of the starting point is viable, and even if you decide against it later on can still be undone with minimal difficulty. People are talking about how they'd have to undo 27 points to use a different route that saves two points and I just don't see how that's possible.

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kodr wrote:

Read the other thread.

I responded in that thread.