Fortify

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Zrevnur wrote:

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Questionable_Xebra wrote:

Certain movement skills themselves need a hard look tbh. Zipping around the map with Whirling Blades or Leap slap. It is stupid how fast you can get around with those. Adding fortify to that. I suspect that new one will have similar brokenness.

Regarding Leap Slam and Whirling Blades, movement skills should mainly be used for getting out of a tight spot, or in cases like LS, Blink Arrow, Lightning Warp, and to a lesser extent, Flame Dash, getting over ledge/crossing gaps. I think LS and WB should either have charges like FD, cast time like LW, or a cooldown time like BA.

I am curious as to why you dont mention Shield Charge?

About WB: Before thinking about charges they should first fix it: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1898785

I forgot about SC tbh lol. I knew I was missing one but was too lazy to search it. SC could function in a FD manner, meaning it should have 3 charges. That 200% multiplier HAS to either go or be refined into a specific type of damage. We saw it getting abused to no end with Decay because it is an all encompassing damage increase.

Regarding the link you put, yes they should address that, but WB needs to be put on charges. No reason for it to be the way it is now.

Bla bla bla, going to save the longer explanations but 600k+ dps is extremely easy on melee when flasks are up. 1 mill is also easily within reach. Hell the last RF theorycraft i did for 3.0(but assuming old flask values that i think should be nerfed in 3.0? - and just 3 of them) had 2.5 million dps when all things were up using nothing special but normal things(okay one 6L was using a 5L ancestal and a 5L vaal double strike) and still potentially getting 8k+ hp as well as walking all the way over to grab vaal pact.

If you think you don't have enough dps its because you can't instant kill the hardest bosses?

As for shield charge, if they give it charges it's not really going to be useable as a spammable attack.

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So ES casters... lol.

33% nerf to ES on gear ✓
Removal of more ES nodes behind CI ✓
Removal of Vaal Pact ✓

...so now the advocation of an additional 25% damage reduction from fortify.

Holy shit you guys aren't trying to kill the ES meta you guys are trying to bury it and make sure nobody ever uses this again as a caster.

Made my day! ^^

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Phrazz wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

The first step is admitting there is a problem.

And that is the problem; in their eyes there is no problem. There are SO many ridiculously simple "solution" (read: improvements) to this "problem", and the fact that they don't speak of any of them, is a clear sign that Fortify "is working as intended".

1) Remove the gem, and add the mechanic to certain melee skills
2) Up the requirements considerably
3) Reduce the duration considerably, and make any attack increase/refresh the duration
4) Link the effect of fortify to accuracy.
5) Make it "stackable", increasing effect for every consecutive attack
6) Add a global "50% LESS spell damage" on Fortify
7) "You are silenced while you have fortify" <-- A bit much, maybe

None of those "suggestions" are perfect, but I think all of them would help the situation. I don't think removing Fortify from movement skills is the solution. I very much like the idea of an initiation skill (WB, SC, LS) where you move into packs and go "ham".

See I find it hard to believe they don't view it as a problem. Especially because 2 handed builds actually have the hardest time maintaining the buff out of all of them (IMO)


1) I think this should happen, one could argue that various "melee" skills far exceed the range as others and therefore shouldn't be considered. IDK I think anything that is melee and a primary ability should give fortify.

2) Up which requirements, str or dex, because upping the str will punish dex and upping the dex too much punishes str. Maybe implement 2 different fortify gems that don't stack, one heavy str and one heavy dex. IDK that won't actually fix it..

3) This only works if suggestion 1 is taken into effect

4) Accuracy is an interesting idea, but similar to the str\dex issue its punishing to some melee builds. The last thing we want to do in the process is punish melee because spell casters have been abusing it.

5) Again fine if #1 is implemented, maybe sucks for skill like earthquake that is more based on slower hits

6) Interesting idea, should also apply to minions as well. Why limit it to 50, why not 80 or more?

7) I'm assuming the jewel would over-ride this.

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The point is if the mage runs into melee, hes also exposing himself to the melee risk which is why it's fair to give him few seconds for doing that.

Decouple fortify from movement skills and suddenly it won't make much sense to get in on casters.. why would you run into them and start melee in the clearspeed meta when its safer and faster to stay at range.

Except they are using the skills for mobility first and formost, giving fortify is just a bonus and one that they can get by swooping in and out again with the same skill, unlike melee that stays engaged in the close range combat.

Its not "fair" at all to give an intended build\playstyle a defensive buff for "briefly" engaging in short range combat. Its bullshit and you know it.


It might be safer for them to stay at ranged, but also they lose out on a lot of different bonuses. Imagine ek nova with no fortify or vaal spark\vaal fireball without the fortify buff. Now you are playing playstyles that require you to get close to the enemy as spell casters, but without the benefit that was intended for melee combat\playstyles.

Just because you swoop in and blowup\shatter\ect a pack as a spell caster doesn't mean you should benefit from the defensive buff that is fortify. ESPECIALLY not anymore after they buffed up MOM.

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You do have to get close to some mob to get fortify. I have also used Frenzy + fortify on totem build. And Vigilant Strike on archer build. So for me removing it from movement skills wouldnt fix "the problem". It needs a proper rework. Most melee builds dont even have 'fortify' in their attack link. If you remove it from move skill the melee build looses the fortify too. Which would make melee builds weaker while doing nothing to archer builds.

You weapon swap for VS? I mean if thats what you think is necessary by all means do it. At least you have to do an additional step to gain the buff, unlike throwing it on an ability you are already going to use.

In terms of not using it with main abilities in links, thats sort of the purpose of making fortify inherent to all melee abilities (that arent just movement skills, like WB\shield charge)

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Using Fortify in Leap Slam/Whirling Blades/Shield Charge is in my eyes the best option overall.

Its not because the side effect is that casters and other playstyles are benefiting from it without a cost. 1 handed builds might use leap slam with fortify, but go ahead and use leap slam with a marohi and tell me you don't want to kill yourself.

Those abilities provide mobility, they shouldn't have to provide anything else at all and them doing so causing an inbalance in the game.

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Holy shit you guys aren't trying to kill the ES meta you guys are trying to bury it and make sure nobody ever uses this again as a caster.

Less es is the only downside for totem caster builds, well aside from the removal of fortify, which spell casters should not have had access to from day 1.

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goetzjam wrote:

You weapon swap for VS? I mean if thats what you think is necessary by all means do it. At least you have to do an additional step to gain the buff, unlike throwing it on an ability you are already going to use.

On archer I have to weapon swap.
Unfortunately I had technical problem: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1893926
So I rarely used it outside of special encounters. Mostly before boss and before Breach. It lasts almost 40 sec and minions get it too.
So I get it when I need it the most. Which means archer is then more tanky (due to Quiver) than 2H melee build. I dont think this is good game design.

Ive come round to the idea that fortify should have about "27% more melee damage" on the gem itself.

further changes im not against entirely, I wouldnt disable it for all movement skills because stuff like cyclone and flicker are movement. Maybe go in on whirling and shield charge and disable it with those skills in particular, cannot be supported by fortify.

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goetzjam wrote:

1) I think this should happen, one could argue that various "melee" skills far exceed the range as others and therefore shouldn't be considered. IDK I think anything that is melee and a primary ability should give fortify.

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The point is if the mage runs into melee, hes also exposing himself to the melee risk which is why it's fair to give him few seconds for doing that.

Decouple fortify from movement skills and suddenly it won't make much sense to get in on casters.. why would you run into them and start melee in the clearspeed meta when its safer and faster to stay at range.

Except they are using the skills for mobility first and formost, giving fortify is just a bonus and one that they can get by swooping in and out again with the same skill, unlike melee that stays engaged in the close range combat.

Which is exactly why im talking about changing movement skills damage source to a new source called movement. One of the benefits is that fortify can no longer work with movement skills - with that change now fortify can be considered if the gem should be improved, or if fortify should be baked into any melee skill as baseline and i agree on the point 1), all skills deemed melee by ggg should be treated as melee. There are actually not more than a few that are longer range and still melee - larcerate, reave etc.

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Crackmonster wrote:

I sort of agree - but what i really think is a longer complicated thing and i lost the huge post i was writing about it.

Essentially now we have 4 so called "damage sources" -

Attack
Spell
Secondary
Damage over time

I'd propose a new one called movement

Which is essentially movement based skills, this decouples movement skills from attack/cast speed scaling which in turn means movement skills can be balanced properly. Right now, because you can get so much attack speed they have to nerf movement skills which results in them being kinda sucky if you don't go attack speed and super good if you do - that creates even more attack speed dependency and unfairly punishes builds that doesn't go as much attack speed to scale their power. It should come complete with movement related support skills, passives and opens the possibility of future itemization.

Consequently, it also decouples movement skills from fortify support since "Melee damage is a category of damage exclusive to the attack damage source".

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Damage#Damage_sources

With these changes many a blow would be struck against major problems of poe balancing.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Ive come round to the idea that fortify should have about "27% more melee damage" on the gem itself.

further changes im not against entirely, I wouldnt disable it for all movement skills because stuff like cyclone and flicker are movement. Maybe go in on whirling and shield charge and disable it with those skills in particular, cannot be supported by fortify.

Thats why I didn't say all movement skills, but mobility skills. Of course it would work with cyclone and flicker strike.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Ive come round to the idea that fortify should have about "27% more melee damage" on the gem itself.

further changes im not against entirely, I wouldnt disable it for all movement skills because stuff like cyclone and flicker are movement. Maybe go in on whirling and shield charge and disable it with those skills in particular, cannot be supported by fortify.

Thats why I didn't say all movement skills, but mobility skills. Of course it would work with cyclone and flicker strike.

That would make me use Flicker Strike on caster. In addition to WB/SC. Unfortunately loss of one skill slot so build needs to be simplified but fortify is too strong to not use.

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Zrevnur wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Ive come round to the idea that fortify should have about "27% more melee damage" on the gem itself.

further changes im not against entirely, I wouldnt disable it for all movement skills because stuff like cyclone and flicker are movement. Maybe go in on whirling and shield charge and disable it with those skills in particular, cannot be supported by fortify.

Thats why I didn't say all movement skills, but mobility skills. Of course it would work with cyclone and flicker strike.

That would make me use Flicker Strike on caster. In addition to WB/SC. Unfortunately loss of one skill slot so build needs to be simplified but fortify is too strong to not use.

Well have to start somewhere, its much better if you use flicker strike then shield charge which your already using for mobility anyway, at least it might start to introduce some socket pressure if you want to use fortify.


Saying just because you will do this or that if X gets changed is not a reason to change x, we have to start somewhere.