Someone explain me plz ES in 3.0

I don't understand how ES is gonna be in 3.0. This is NOT a QQ topic.

Right now leveling as a CI is fine in normal and cruel but in merc and getting to lvl 69, even in dried lake, means many deaths because you probably have only like 800-1300hp in sofcore and no ES yet. One hit from white mob = stun & lost 30% max hp. Unless you wanna waste a lot of regret orbs or have sick leveling gear.
Will leveling ES builds in 3.0 be doable now for a league-starter?

Also ES items are sooooo much more expensive than life items and harder to roll.

Now I read that instant lifeleech is not gonna be possible anymore in 3.0 for ES builds? Is that true? Because that is a VERY important lategame aspect.

Also to get a 10-12k ES pool in 3.0 (means you still get one-hit), I assume you need absolutely godlike gear?

I assume that ES pools will still be higher than life pools in 3.0. But without the instant-ll and still not being able to avoid one-shots and for that massive extra cost, is it worth it? Or should you go life, even as a witch? Because life builds seem so much better right? And you also still have the stun problem.

I haven't played beta btw so I'm probably all wrong. But to me it sounds that going ranged + life build = better in 3.0. But I could be all wrong.

I also tried 100k armor + 11k ES + fortify + chaos golem + etc with aegis aurora in 2.6 but still got onehit by shaper guardian... Armor is so useless against those big hits. So I guess ranged + eva/dodge/block + life build? And obviously no builds that require you to stand still (flameblast, CWC gems, etc) because you area more likely to facetank a one-hitter then. So ranged + eva/dodge/block + life + mobility + clearspeed.

11k ES is plenty to tank the shaper slam or anything of his guardians. The trick is to not use noob trash armour but static defense. Anything that reduces your damage by a flat undeniable percentage like fortify, taste of hate, lightning coil, endurance charges, Basalt Flask, Arctic Armour those make armour highly redudant and replaceable because of the dog shit armour formular.

Obviously Aegis Aurora with armour and block and some energy shield is good for trash enemies if you are paranoid to get killed by a rare but for tanking those end game slams its likley the wrong build if you dont stack static defenses.

Yeah I noticed that as well. Aegis makes you literally immune vs all thrash and most map bosses also heal you. But the high end game-content will (insta-)kill you. Insta LL is better than aegis.

And yes you are right things like L-coil and such are way better than armour. Armour suffers from the same problem Aegis does: it's AMAZING vs trash but utterly useless vs high endgame content. Dodge, eva, block, high hp/es pools, other mitigations, etc. are better than all armour in the world.

I see many builds that just have like 5k hp, max block, and just hope to RNG that if a one-hitter lands in their face, it get's blocked or dodged while they ignore & lifeleech back the other 'none-one-hits' they receive.

But okay that is just about armour. What about ES in 3.0? Will we have a life-meta now? Or is it actually balanced?

We will have a life meta definately this is intended by GGG and it is also a bit of a breeze of fresh air after 3 years of ES best in everything dominance.

I think Hybrid builds could do decently in 3.0. I hope personally that GGG would rework Eldritch Battery to be somewhat useful. That being said ES will still be able to do decent on high budget after all there is normal leech which works with ES and Ghostreaver this isnt too bad.

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silverdash wrote:

And yes you are right things like L-coil and such are way better than armour. Armour suffers from the same problem Aegis does: it's AMAZING vs trash but utterly useless vs high endgame content.

100k armour is over twice as effective as a lightning coil against pretty much every physical hit in the game. Coil + Taste Of Hate will be worse than 100k armour against phys in any situation that deals direct hit phys damage.

If you look at something like a 8k pure physical hit, which is extremely rare and will 1 shot almost any life based pure evasion build who doesnt have their flasks up, even 30k armour will reduce more damage than a lightning coil against that sort of hit. 30k armour is stronger than a coil even against a 9k hit, and its additive with basalts and endurance charges which makes them stronger when using armour than a coil.

Thats 30k, when youre talking about 100k armour thats absolutely insane. If you look at a 10k pure phys hit, which youd need to get hit by something like a vaal slam in maze map to get a hit that size, they essentially dont exist for anything youd actually get hit by, 100k armour on its own will mitigate more damage than a lightning coil, taste of hate and a basalt flask all used together.

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silverdash wrote:

Also ES items are sooooo much more expensive than life items and harder to roll.

Well... To be honest, they're only that expensive because up until 3.0 ES is the king of the mitigations. It's objectively THE best thing to gear for, either as CI or LL. So it's popular and so it becomes more expensive.

Expect prices to drop somewhat when 3.0 comes with a bunch of Life builds shaping the meta (Abusing VP and Slayer)

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Now I read that instant lifeleech is not gonna be possible anymore in 3.0 for ES builds? Is that true? Because that is a VERY important lategame aspect.

Yes this is true. It's also the most notable reason why ES will come down in power. Sure the lower bases and loss of the mastercraft also brings it down, but not quite to the same level as losing VP (Because VP is stupid).

However, regular leech and regen still exists. As does potential for some Recharge builds (Witch based or Evasion Shadow based), though these could do with some more tweaks (Such as viable mechanics for them for other classes, even Scion can't do it... Also please make Vaal Discipline not trash... Give it some reduced Recharge delay or something)

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I assume that ES pools will still be higher than life pools in 3.0. But without the instant-ll and still not being able to avoid one-shots and for that massive extra cost, is it worth it?

To be honest, once prices settle out in the new post-ES-Masterrace world, the main "Cost" for going ES over live is more passives and resources going towards defences. You know, the thing that Life has had to do for ages to get its values that were 50% or more lower than the ES builds that would build more damage...

The fact that VP still exists in its insta-lifeleech form is going to mean that for most builds that Leech, you'll wanna go Life (Hopefully VP gets axed in the future and then all builds will be wanting to go layered defences instead of letting glass cannons facetank most things because "Lol heal to full every 0.1 second!")

However, ES will still have a place for non-Leechers, or those who would want to stack Int anyway (Such as HoWA, Whispering Ice, Saemus' Gift). It's likely it'll still be usable for leechers that don't care about being the most min-maxed meta build ever too.

I quickly looked it up on https://fiddle.jshell.net/dsgqe8rr/embedded/result/ (not sure if this site is still up2date) but it shows that it only blocks around 40-55% damage (with fortify and and l-coil and etc) at 30k pdamage (so you still die). But a 30k ele hit, you would survive. Ele dmg is also easier to mitigate.

I checked armour effectiveness @30k pdamage and they only reduce incomming damage by 25% (at 100.000 armour). So armour... Useless against that... Fortify alone (which even a caster can have when linked to movement skill) is only 5% less effective than 100.000 armour vs those hits.
However, against 10k damage hits, 100k armour is still good (exactly 50% mitigation). But for more damage than that, armour very quickly becomes absolutely useless (ESPECIALLY for life builds).

Well I do not know the exact boss stats and there are ofc possibilities of crits, map mods, etc that increase their damage way over that. But that Minotaur slam did 1-hit me. So I was like... Yay for armour (I know he does 30% l-damage but still killed me)... Wish we had death-combat-logs.
Overall I prefer having no armour and just using fortify+golem and going full block and/or dodge as this seems waaaaay better for endgame content.

Yes ES prices will drastically drop in 3.0. But for life you just need a +max hp roll and that's it. For ES you need percentage ES AND flat ES and they must both be high rolls AND they must be rolled on an ES item. Finding/crafting good life gear is many times easier than finding good ES gear. But in 3.0 life gear will be more in demand. So life-gear prices will go up.


Vaal Pact should just be completely removed from the game. It allows you to facetank anything that is not a 1-hit. Completely op for any build. Be it life or ES.

Thanks for info.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Thats 30k, when youre talking about 100k armour thats absolutely insane. If you look at a 10k pure phys hit, which youd need to get hit by something like a vaal slam in maze map to get a hit that size, they essentially dont exist for anything youd actually get hit by, 100k armour on its own will mitigate more damage than a lightning coil, taste of hate and a basalt flask all used together.

We were talking about shaper slam/ slams in general not the ordinary lol trash mob or cheap boss. Those damage hits essentially exsist. Dodging them away doesnt make them non exsistant. Shaper deals 10-12k eazy. Thats between 45-50% damage reduction after the armour formular is applied for 100k armour. While taste of hate + lightning coil (non legacy) = 50% dmg reduction of phys before resist applied for 75% resist its a 37.5% damage reduction. Then comes seperately applied in the next layer + 20% basalt flask (not counting pathfinder lol). Which means 10k - 37.5% = 6250 - 20 % basalt = 5000 Damage left (50% damage reduction total)

Where is the 100k armour better compared to lightning coil basalt flask and taste of hate in our example 45-50% is not better than 50%?

You are free to compare your armour against stone throwing monkeys but thats not the use cases where I apply my tankiness.

Btw. apply 80% resists and pathfinder then we are looking at 58% physical damage reduction vs 45-50%.

€dit: Fixed the additive layering calculation.

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zzang wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Thats 30k, when youre talking about 100k armour thats absolutely insane. If you look at a 10k pure phys hit, which youd need to get hit by something like a vaal slam in maze map to get a hit that size, they essentially dont exist for anything youd actually get hit by, 100k armour on its own will mitigate more damage than a lightning coil, taste of hate and a basalt flask all used together.

We were talking about shaper slam/ slams in general not the ordinary lol trash mob or cheap boss. Those damage hits essentially exsist. Dodging them away doesnt make them non exsistant. Shaper deals 10-12k eazy. Thats between 45-50% damage reduction after the armour formular is applied for 100k armour. While taste of hate + lightning coil (non legacy) = 50% dmg reduction of phys before resist applied for 75% resist its a 37.5 damage reduction + 20% basalt flask (not counting pathfinder lol) = 57.5% flat damage reduction under any circumstances.

Where is the 100k armour better compared to lightning coil basalt flask and taste of hate in our example?

Does your math suck that hard?

Btw. apply 80% resists and pathfinder then we are looking at 65% physical damage reduction vs 45-50%.

yeah I think you need to do your math again taking into account which layers of phys mitigation stack additively and which are applied consecutively to remaining damage from the previous layers.

He was not talking about shaper slams, he was talking about getting 1 hit by a guardian, no guardian does 10k phys damage in 1 hit, not even close. You move out of the way from a shaper slam or a vaal slam.

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silverdash wrote:

I checked armour effectiveness @30k pdamage and they only reduce incomming damage by 25% (at 100.000 armour). So armour... Useless against that...

nothing in the game does 30k pdamage, nothing even does 15k. Realistic big hit that will actually hit you, as in not a vaal or shaper slam, will very rarely exceed 7k damage.