life and ES changes - feedback

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Fruz wrote:

You can kite after a big hit and gets some health back, and destroy trash mobs to refill your flask, or if you are ES based, pop a decoy somewhere (or pop a smokemine) and get to safety for 2 seconds before you ES recharges.

Were you doing guardians recently? Or any T15 boss?

I would gladly see you poping decoy on Minotaur to have 2s to get to safety recharge your ES. Really :)

Doing breach in some T13+ with mods would also be quite interesting. Esh especially. Or maybe what about... Burning Rage trial in predictive mode. It would be definitely fun! ;)

The problem is, that in those year between re-charge ES era and now, game was packed with mechanics which just make it unplayable. Compare "old" bosses arenas with what we have now.

You could kite Vall, but try to kite Minotaur or any other Guardian. That's why people want to "facetank" bosses. Because commonly, or you facetank them or you oneshot them. Or they kill you. And there is no middle ground.

For quite long now, GGG's new bosses are virtually not kittable. I could agree with Sids or your arguments, assuming that GGG will rework most if not all boss fights. But it will nto happen, worse, what we see from spoiler videos, bosses seems even less kittable than now.

I'm frankly interested, how beta results will be, frankly.

The problem is, that for ES to work, you will now need to have top tier gear. They will not test it in beta, considering that most players will have to play SSF and time to play is very limited.

For last few seasons, I was playing quite not meta, hybrid or CI characters, no VP, no leech, just regen/recharge. And considering my experiences, with such gutted ES values, they will just not work. Simple as that.

Fortunately, I'm quite burned out with ES for now, so gladly will jump back on life based character.

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tmaciak wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

You can kite after a big hit and gets some health back, and destroy trash mobs to refill your flask, or if you are ES based, pop a decoy somewhere (or pop a smokemine) and get to safety for 2 seconds before you ES recharges.

Were you doing guardians recently? Or any T15 boss?

I would gladly see you poping decoy on Minotaur to have 2s to get to safety recharge your ES. Really :)

Doing breach in some T13+ with mods would also be quite interesting. Esh especially. Or maybe what about... Burning Rage trial in predictive mode. It would be definitely fun! ;)

The problem is, that in those year between re-charge ES era and now, game was packed with mechanics which just make it unplayable. Compare "old" bosses arenas with what we have now.

You could kite Vall, but try to kite Minotaur or any other Guardian. That's why people want to "facetank" bosses. Because commonly, or you facetank them or you oneshot them. Or they kill you. And there is no middle ground.

For quite long now, GGG's new bosses are virtually not kittable. I could agree with Sids or your arguments, assuming that GGG will rework most if not all boss fights. But it will nto happen, worse, what we see from spoiler videos, bosses seems even less kittable than now.

I'm frankly interested, how beta results will be, frankly.

The problem is, that for ES to work, you will now need to have top tier gear. They will not test it in beta, considering that most players will have to play SSF and time to play is very limited.

For last few seasons, I was playing quite not meta, hybrid or CI characters, no VP, no leech, just regen/recharge. And considering my experiences, with such gutted ES values, they will just not work. Simple as that.

Fortunately, I'm quite burned out with ES for now, so gladly will jump back on life based character.

Thank you for eloquently explaining what I have been failing to do for the last few posts. This is EXACTLY how I see it as well.

There are many mechanics that have been introduced (breaches is a great example) that make regen a very tough mechanic to tackle.

Will it work? yeah probably 90% of the time...but it's that 10% where it simply does not work that will kill you.

Great explanation.

Also in my experience the passive playstyles are the ones that do well with regen. Totems and Traps especially. The only other exception may be Caustic Arrow and SRS type builds that don't leech much anyway and are fairly at range.

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Fruz wrote:

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Painkiler1 wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

But anyway, that's not the point, the point is that many are pretending that 20k is something that needs little investment.
This is not true at all.

Certain builds have it

Show me a build that have little investment and 20k ES then, by all means please do it.


And going over 6k life isn't very difficult, it needs a significant life nodes investment, but all good life builds do this anyway because it's the best way to build a life character at the moment, and it does not need BiS gear.
Feel free to prove me wrong if you can.

All life builds are doing it because if you don't do it you literally get one shot by half the game.

Also for over 6.5k you need 200%+ life + Belly + over 80 life in each slot which is far from not needing BiS gear.

And even then you can still very easily get wombo-comboed when you lose focus for a moment.

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IYOU HAVE NEVER PLAYED A COC CHARACTER SO STFU ABOUT IT.

I have.
You don't need to behave like a spoiled raging kid you know, that will only make you look bad.


You mentioned hardcore as part of your argument, it's as simple as that.
I know what building defensively for hardcore as I have experience with it, but you don't, yet you are the one going all out crazy on "YOU HAVE NOT DONE THAT STFU".
I was just pointing that out.

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Newsflash: This is primarily a PvE single-player game where people irrationally profess and obsess over balance.

Last resort of somebody afraid of having to find another way of playing a one button character I guess.

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tmaciak wrote:

Were you doing guardians recently? Or any T15 boss?

I have reached some t15 bosses ( not all, I didn't bother in softcore tbh ) in HC before ripping yeah.
Arenas are pretty small, I'll give you that, I thought that I did mention in this thread the overused vomit looking life effects everywhere in some encounters in a too-small area that don't do the game any good when overused, those are part of it.
Hopefully, GGG will do something about it with the ES changes, as it is definitely pushing players to have more deeps and try to facetanks everything.

Guardian I cant tell, as I never bothered even trying to get there ( maybe I should someday though, but I've not played standard for a while and I SSF, so I would need more time ), but I can understand that it's basically the same.

Breaches are also something that broke the balance a bit further to me .... yet if you have a really good coverage, you can blow up a lot of mobs quickly enough to create a safe spot, as they don't respawn at the same spot.
I am not saying that it is easy though, but if you are going into a double beyong + 30%+ packsize with an inc density breach in a red map, you shoud know whether it will be a problem for your build or not, and whether you should try to run away or log out if it stinks too much at some point.


I am not keeping my hopes very high about those boss fights being reworked, but I still hope that GGG will stop going all crazy about brainless zerging.
So yeah, I am aware of what you are saying, but by assuming that nothing will never change, the balance will stay like this forever, and I don't want that personally.

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Also for over 6.5k you need 200%+ life + Belly + over 80 life in each slot which is far from not needing BiS gear.

My frostblade Ranger has 6k life with 3 gear pieces without life roll, no belly, 200 str total ( so not much from gear ).
And the other pieces don't have godlike rolls either.


So no, you don't need all of that to reach 6500 life, you don't need over 80 life in each slot ( you cannot get 80 life on jewelerry from life roll only anyway ), for 7k ... maybe though.

Still think life so so weak that even nerf to ES wont change anything, GGG must do some more changes to Life: buff base life, buff life per level and life on gear.

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TreeOfDead wrote:

Still think life so so weak that even nerf to ES wont change anything, GGG must do some more changes to Life: buff base life, buff life per level and life on gear.

Which turns it into exactly what ES is now... well with a bit of armor or evasion on top. So we are basically back to square one, just with the difference that we will have 2h builds with 12k HP running around instead of high ES numbers, yes the HP amounts will still be lower but 12k HP is enough to facetank pretty much everything bar a few attacks.

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Also in my experience the passive playstyles are the ones that do well with regen. Totems and Traps especially. The only other exception may be Caustic Arrow and SRS type builds that don't leech much anyway and are fairly at range.

The thing is, right now we are in an endless cycle and we kinda have to break out. Because of Instant Leech and high ES numbers we have insane damage and oneshots, and because we have those insane damage amounts and a lot of oneshots people need high ES and instant leech.

Of course nobody expects such a change to instantly work out, it cannot work without adjusting enemies to some degree. And like it happened with 2.0 it will be a fiesta at first. Many people complained that Casters and CI is unplayable after 2.0 and over the time it evolved into the dominant playstyle.

The thing is, while it is hard to make major mechanical adjustments during a league it is very easy to adjust some specific bosses or enemies that are way too harsh without instant leech.

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The problem is, that in those year between re-charge ES era and now, game was packed with mechanics which just make it unplayable. Compare "old" bosses arenas with what we have now.

The thing is, I would agree that CI Melees are pretty much dead. But ranged CI builds already had this issue if they used traps or anything that forbid leech. And I can tell you, because I did use such a build, that it actually felt balanced without Leech CI was mostly fine (too good for Breaches due to permanent Vaal Discipline, but thats it). That is why I would not have punished the amount of ES players can achieve so heavily I would have added an ES penalty for Ghost Reaver, while on the same time giving it a bit more Leech potential (a few nodes behind Ghost Reaver that are basically like Vitality Void).

Because Leech will still allow ranged builds to be mostly fine, due to them not having to wait for recharge. We will also likely see a few more Occultists because their Nodes are actually valuable now. Melees though have a harder time, because they cannot kite so giving something to them would be a cool thing.

i do not think that there is a single hit in the game that does more than 6500 flat. that is excluding crit or map mods. ive seen people lower and lower their ES buffers from 12k to around 8k because 8k + instant leech is all players need to survive bar some freak (or untankable by design) hits

problem was (well.. kinda is) that it took like 7 nodes for ES build to get there, while life builds needed 50 (exaggeration.. maybe, with 850 chest, 400 helm and 400 shield + some stuff it looks plausible



this ring alone gives 800 ES to my character. i havent even bothered divining it up to 20. ES scaling IS CRAZY strong.

where are %life rolls on normal rare items?



i still hope that:
a) ggg reduces BS/content ratio to zero. volatiles and other idiocy mechanics should go.
b) players reset their 'knowledge' of the game and try to understand how it works a bit better this time. you do not need instant leech to clear T10 maps nor T15 ones, even as melee. there are ways to cope with damage other than simply soaking it and leeching back
c) ggg reduces % of damage dealt to players that is not affected by AR and EV. this includes breaches (where pretty much everything is elemental spell that both AR and EV do jack sh..). as long as predominant damage type is elemental spell there is no better way to ignore AR and EV and invest into something that works against it. spell block, buffer, spell dodge, max-res

both spell block and spell dodge are item-gated and require building a BUILD as opposed to selecting any build and simply adding these. ofc one can pick gladiator.. sure, but what was that build diversity we were talking about?

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sidtherat wrote:

a) ggg reduces BS/content ratio to zero. volatiles and other idiocy mechanics should go.
b) players reset their 'knowledge' of the game and try to understand how it works a bit better this time. you do not need instant leech to clear T10 maps nor T15 ones, even as melee. there are ways to cope with damage other than simply soaking it and leeching back
c) ggg reduces % of damage dealt to players that is not affected by AR and EV. this includes breaches (where pretty much everything is elemental spell that both AR and EV do jack sh..). as long as predominant damage type is elemental spell there is no better way to ignore AR and EV and invest into something that works against it. spell block, buffer, spell dodge, max-res

both spell block and spell dodge are item-gated and require building a BUILD as opposed to selecting any build and simply adding these. ofc one can pick gladiator.. sure, but what was that build diversity we were talking about?

Agree with that, I bolded some part, many could learn from reading it.

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Fruz wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

a) ggg reduces BS/content ratio to zero. volatiles and other idiocy mechanics should go.
b) players reset their 'knowledge' of the game and try to understand how it works a bit better this time. you do not need instant leech to clear T10 maps nor T15 ones, even as melee. there are ways to cope with damage other than simply soaking it and leeching back
c) ggg reduces % of damage dealt to players that is not affected by AR and EV. this includes breaches (where pretty much everything is elemental spell that both AR and EV do jack sh..). as long as predominant damage type is elemental spell there is no better way to ignore AR and EV and invest into something that works against it. spell block, buffer, spell dodge, max-res

both spell block and spell dodge are item-gated and require building a BUILD as opposed to selecting any build and simply adding these. ofc one can pick gladiator.. sure, but what was that build diversity we were talking about?

Agree with that, I bolded some part, many could learn from reading it.

Well, you missed the other important changes that have to be done, I completed your bolded suggestion.

+1000 sid, although I would be amazed if GGG truly applied your 3 viable proposals starting with 3.0...

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+1000 sid, although I would be amazed if GGG truly applied your 3 viable proposals starting with 3.0...

They won't. The same thing happened with 2.0. They nerfed many of the good defenses and it was a clusterfuck. However if you don't break this thing open at one point you are basically stuck with it.

The good thing is GGG usually breaks such defensive metas by taking that defense away. They could also first reduce the enemy damage and see afterwards how much defense players need, but this would result in an insanely easy game for quite some time, which is much more boring than a really challanging game.

Right now they have taken away some of the best defensive options and I still hope they take down instant leech in general. Because this actually opens up changes to enemies. They could make damage less spiky (and no Alt + F4 is no reason against it, because it allows you to avoid death, not to beat the encounter). Of course in 3.0 many of those follow up changes will be messy, so damage will be just as spiky and people will just die without instant leech and smaller buffers. But adjusting mob damage during a follow up patch within the 3.0 cycle is much more reasonable than removing instantleech during such a cycle.