Changes to the Labyrinth

I still fail to understand the reason why a minor (but still considerable) portion of the playerbase would want the lab to go for good. I also fail to understand what kind of so big issues they could have with it.

Now.. uber lab can actually be difficult and requires some skill, but being endgame content I think it's fine to not be accessible to everyone.

But Normal-cruel-mercilles labs... just do them overleveled and if you can do map bosses you will have no problems with Izaro, for what concerns traps... just don't panic, take a few seconds to understand how the trap layout is working and bring with you a couple of instant recovery flasks, in case you do some mystakes, that's it.

If it's not difficulty to bother you... how can it really bother you so much in the first place? I'm not a racer, don't do speed runs, I do not even use movement skills which if it was for me wouldn't even exist (hate to see players jumping like kangaroos, it just looks dumb)... still it takes me something like 10-15 mins on average to do a lab run... I mean... 10 minutes, and you have to do it just 3 times during leveling and you are done with the lab.

Do you really want all the game content to be the same? I think it was a great addition because it feels like an unique place in the game world, not more of the same. It also pushes softcore players out of their comfort zone (without punishing them to much) and adds even more trill to the hardcore ones.


All this said... I think that, now that the game has a single difficulty level, 4 different labs are redundant. They should have reduced them to 3 (entry level lab, normal lab and end game lab, redistributing ascendancy points accordingly).

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FrancescoV wrote:

I still fail to understand the reason why a minor (but still considerable) portion of the playerbase would want the lab to go for good. I also fail to understand what kind of so big issues they could have with it.

Now.. uber lab can actually be difficult and requires some skill, but being endgame content I think it's fine to not be accessible to everyone.

But Normal-cruel-mercilles labs... just do them overleveled and if you can do map bosses you will have no problems with Izaro, for what concerns traps... just don't panic, take a few seconds to understand how the trap layout is working and bring with you a couple of instant recovery flasks, in case you do some mystakes, that's it.

If it's not difficulty to bother you... how can it really bother you so much in the first place? I'm not a racer, don't do speed runs, I do not even use movement skills which if it was for me wouldn't even exist (hate to see players jumping like kangaroos, it just looks dumb)... still it takes me something like 10-15 mins on average to do a lab run... I mean... 10 minutes, and you have to do it just 3 times during leveling and you are done with the lab.

Do you really want all the game content to be the same? I think it was a great addition because it feels like an unique place in the game world, not more of the same. It also pushes softcore players out of their comfort zone (without punishing them to much) and adds even more trill to the hardcore ones.


All this said... I think that, now that the game has a single difficulty level, 4 different labs are redundant. They should have reduced them to 3 (entry level lab, normal lab and end game lab, redistributing ascendancy points accordingly).

Almost nobody wants lab gone for good. Some like lab, so why take away a source of fun for those who do? Also, quite a few people worked hard on lab and why take away the fruits of their labor, especially given that there are players who do appreciate it?

What a large percentage of those who dislike or hate lab would like is an additional way to unlock GGG's version of prestige classes. Some others would like one or more specific "pain points" addressed. For example, some dislike starting over for an internet hiccup and some would like some variety in how prestige classes are earned (ie: not the exact same process multiple times for every character, but a way of ascending that makes sense for each of the various character types).

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FrancescoV wrote:

Now.. uber lab can actually be difficult and requires some skill, but being endgame content I think it's fine to not be accessible to everyone.

The counterargument against this 'access restriction' is that some of the ascendancy passives are really enabler, needed to make some builds work.

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FrancescoV wrote:

But Normal-cruel-mercilles labs... just do them overleveled and if you can do map bosses you will have no problems with Izaro, for what concerns traps... just don't panic...

a) chance to be overlevelled seems to become harder/limited/changed on next release...
b) there are (too much) situations where you're not able to see the full trap pattern, and also to much trap combinations that dont leave room for 'no panic'

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FrancescoV wrote:

All this said... I think that, now that the game has a single difficulty level, 4 different labs are redundant. They should have reduced them to 3 (entry level lab, normal lab and end game lab, redistributing ascendancy points accordingly).

I'm also curious how the handling of the diff setting will shift with the next updates. (while the penalty on Kitava sounds reasonable, I think the 2nd penalty after act 7 is just a placeholder. If this would shift to act 10 in the end, either the 2nd or the 3rd lab instance would lost all justification (depending on desired level)

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Almost nobody wants lab gone for good. Some like lab, so why take away a source of fun for those who do?

(For me) Its not about 'taking away' - but the issue is that you (may) WANT that enchantment that is useful for your build. And from the "design" of the complete random enchants, it is not only a huge struggle for some players but also a HUGE timesink to get a desirable result.

With the large gap between a 'good' layout and a bad day, I dont like that massive amount of struggle. The other fact is that the impact of Izaro's buffs seems to big - and I never liked mechanics where things can basically only go worse if you need a 'little too much' time, also dont 'understand' that inactive buff parts 'still' count later on.

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Dahaur wrote:

+1 for an option where we can do the Izaro fights without having to go through any lab area. Only the three encounters. Rewards would be the two ascendancy points, no treasure keys, no enchantment. This way the lab could remain unchanged for people who like it, but also would be avoidable for people who don't like it.

This would be fine I like this suggestion Dahaur.


TL;DR It's not the difficulty it's the repetition, and no lessening the repetition does not help. End it, that would help, alternative ways to get my points that would help, not gating my damn rewards behind a bs game mechanic that would also help...






To the guy drooling over the difficulty of lab is why we're "whining" let me enlighten you, my guild always has double digits for 36/40 challenge and that's even when guys hate the league GGG chooses or they are laggy af. Doesn't matter what I am saying is there's always someone much more skilled than myself who could walk me through, drag me through, help me out etc.

That's not the point, I can do the lab alone I've done it several times I have to about a 20 min run most of that time spent acquiring uniques and skill gems that DO NOT FIT MY BUILD, to run the lab with efficacy.

The problem for me lies in the following, IF YOU ARE GETTING RID OF STUPIDLY REPETITIVE GAMEPLAY SITUATIONS which they have... why would you keep another even more repetitve gameplay situation "well it'll feel less bad guys" newsflash friends...


I don't play a frigging video game to ever "feel bad" are they inept no, they brought us this glorious game. So that further lets me know it's just stubbornness that keeps this element in the game, does it bother me it's in the game no, it bugs me they are making more and more necessary. When it was 100% optional it was fine Idgaf about the lab so I never made a fuss about it, didn't keep me from receiving MTX from races or alt art or any of the things I like to play for... it's doing that now :|

Which has time and time again bit them directly in the butt in the past, stubbornness that is... Idk who makes the call to keep it going and Idc, what I do care about is that you goofy guys who keep "debating" the merits of a lab run understand this NOBODY runs the lab for fun. Profit, yes, competitive drive yes, not fun.

You can't run the lab for more ascendancy points in the same difficulty you can't do anything but compete for the best time, or get more rewards. My thing is simple I am a constant re-roller I see something I like or a new unique to build around and I go for it, I don't want to see Izaro and the lab(on it's various point branches) 72x a league simply because "well some people like it" good for them.. I don't want it out the game I want it out of the way of my fun and clearly others as well or it wouldn't be 900 people discussing their dissatisfaction with it, and that's just on the forums.

Some people liked "ruthless" difficulty too, I see it's no longer here hey people loved merc as well it's going the way of the got damn dodo. I don't like repetition this game has broken a lot of standard cookie cutter ARPG "rules" but then you have whoever it is on the payroll, who wants to step back into the mold they have outgrown and shattered with repetitive elements like the labyrinth which aren't necessary. (I can say that with full confidence since I seen a level 89 ED player who had not ascended) so it's obviously not necessary to ascend and it's not necessary to run lab to stack currency. Most streamers bolt maps together in a successive chain for currency accruing.


The only reason anyone runs it is for quick profit and that's because they don't want to subject themselves to third party trading sites, which is another issue for another time.

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Dublins wrote:

Which has time and time again bit them directly in the butt in the past, stubbornness that is... Idk who makes the call to keep it going and Idc, what I do care about is that you goofy guys who keep "debating" the merits of a lab run understand this NOBODY runs the lab for fun. Profit, yes, competitive drive yes, not fun.

speak for yourself, i ran them just for fun. aspecially when i got borred with mapping. most of the time i even joined a game where someone needed it and just ran it with them. and in the cases they offered a reward for it i didnt even want it. since i just ran it for some differsity. even if i didnt, running it for profit could also be satisfying i imagine.

anyway following your logic we could just remove mapping alltogether, since its quite repetative and we only farm it in order to find items lvl up or progress trough the atlas.

personaly i hope they improve the lab, since it could be so much more. what people disslike about the lab is different for most people, but the most used arguement is they just dont like it and simply removing it is often the answer. which is in no means a good arguement. some of the people i play with disslike the lab and i would like it if the lab got some attention to adress their frustration with it, but whenever they argue it should just be removed all their reasoning i got on why seemed really personal and selfish.

i do care that people have fun in the game and dont get frustrated with some content presented to them, but i did want to post how i personaly felt about it, cause it seems like often the minority in the game get what they want because people who didnt feel the same, and actually did enjoy it didnt actively go on the forum and express themselfs about it. in case the people that disslike it is the majority it should however be adressed drasticly indeed, and even tho i like it myself i feel like i should sacrifice in order to please the majority, in fact if i knew majority just want it gone i wouldnt plea for it to be kept regardless of how i feel about it myself.

also i do want to add your arguement about it being repetative is insanely exaggerated for content you would run 4x at most if you didnt like it, spread over quite some time.

now looking at Mr_cee's post, i think he has some good arguements about the lab, and trying to adres those seems like a good way to go. i like how he points out what it is he runs into when doing the labs and why its making his experience feel less fun then it should be

I think that are many ways to "fix" labyrinth for those that dislike it while still keeping the labyrinth for players that like it. So I doubt that any "sacrifice" should be needed if GGG does address the issue.

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Turtledove wrote:

I think that are many ways to "fix" labyrinth for those that dislike it while still keeping the labyrinth for players that like it. So I doubt that any "sacrifice" should be needed if GGG does address the issue.

Exactly.
AP in Lab is the problem for many people.
There are many solutions to mitigate it already suggested. Example ideas, that I like
* Add an option to fight Izaro only for AP (no XP, no loot, no enchantment, no treasure chests, nothing sans AP)
* Add option to buy one Ascendancy passive for "X" skill points, and change lab reward for "2*X" skill points

And if somebody likes it, he can do it, and/or profit from farming of lab. Plain and simple.

100% agree that Ascendancy Points being gated behind Labs is the main issue here. If you dislike or can't do Labs, for whatever reason, your only options are to play an inferior build or to have someone else do Labs for you - no fun, no challenge, no feel-good factor.

From a lot of posts in this thread people simply seem to be asking for an alternative way to earn their APs which is more in keeping with the rest of PoE's ARPG gameplay. This would also be a boon for SSF players, and would allow Labs to be left "as is" for those who enjoy it in its current format.

I watched the video Pohx put out recently reviewing how lab has been changed in beta, before coming here to provide feedback.

I agree with Pohx's statement in that video that "lab" and "fun" shouldn't be used in the same sentence. I also agree with numerous others that AP being gated behind lab is the core problem and, despite making lab less irritating, the beta changes to lab don't address that issue.

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rocketnob wrote:

100% agree that Ascendancy Points being gated behind Labs is the main issue here. If you dislike or can't do Labs, for whatever reason, your only options are to play an inferior build or to have someone else do Labs for you - no fun, no challenge, no feel-good factor.

From a lot of posts in this thread people simply seem to be asking for an alternative way to earn their APs which is more in keeping with the rest of PoE's ARPG gameplay. This would also be a boon for SSF players, and would allow Labs to be left "as is" for those who enjoy it in its current format.

this is pretty much how i feel as well.
Id play poe again more and throw more $ at GGG if I could get my AP some other way that didnt involve the lab.