How about creating more reasons not to go crit?

Crit should be "50% more price of items for the same dps as non-crit. 100% more max possible dps at the highest investment." (I'm not speaking in PoE terms of "more" now, but hell, if you are hellbent for interpreting it that way, replace more with "extra"). Basically every starter build should go no-crit, then if you happen to have those 10-15ex for pure dps items, you can surpass non crit builds.

By doing this we make builds much easier to balance, with more similar potential, but rich or dedicated players will eventually get those "oneshot boss" moments, IF they stick with the build for enough time.
Why bother finding a Mirror of Kalandra if it can be [Removed by Support]
Killing the Elder or Shaper while following someone's build is like finding a street using google maps - such an achievement!
Last edited by Prostitute4Money on Apr 22, 2017, 11:23:46 PM
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Fruz wrote:
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Turtledove wrote:

He didn't really say that. Non crit builds have a more consistent DPS output which means easier to handle the reflect.


Which is very wrong if you take RT (attack build of course)....

How is that wrong? Please don't throw around with strong statements when you are not willing to explain them. Of course the dmg is FAR MORE consistent with an rt attack build than with any crit build.
German saying: Schönheit und Funktionalität in Sekundenschnelle zu ruinieren, ist dem wahren Dilettanten keine Herausforderung!
torturo: "Though, I'm really concerned, knowing by practice the capabilities of the balance team."
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666lol666 wrote:
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Fruz wrote:
"
Turtledove wrote:

He didn't really say that. Non crit builds have a more consistent DPS output which means easier to handle the reflect.


Which is very wrong if you take RT (attack build of course)....

How is that wrong? Please don't throw around with strong statements when you are not willing to explain them. Of course the dmg is FAR MORE consistent with an rt attack build than with any crit build.

You can evade reflect, with arrow dancing for example, it removes a lot of it.
With RT ... you can't ( you can still block/dodge it tho ).
With how crit works, just a correct amount of evasion and reflect is already less of a threat ( unless you deal absurd amount of damage or has an accuracy that goes through the roof ).


And The consistency is a BS argument here, crit oriented builds crit often enough to consider mostly those hits to be reflected.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz on Apr 24, 2017, 2:43:02 AM
As said already, RT needs a few strong nodes behind it so that can be interesting again.
"Metas rotate all the time, eventually the developers will buff melee"
PoE 2013-2018
Last edited by Wazz72 on Apr 24, 2017, 2:39:16 AM
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Wazz72 wrote:
As said already, RT needs a few strong nodes behind it so that can be interesting again.

That or some accuracy/crit changes yeah.

SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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ciel289 wrote:

attacks already have enough more multiplier gems

for melee its melee physical/weapon ele dmg
for ranged its physical proj attack/weapon ele dmg


Not sure if serious...
This is a buff © 2016

The Experts ™ 2017
Actually the OP wasn't intending to criticize the state of RT but rather of crit-capable builds that might want to stack something besides crit.

In a nutshell, I want non-RT non-crit to actually be a viable choice, because more viable choices make PoE a more interesting game.
Wash your hands, Exile!
Last edited by gibbousmoon on Apr 24, 2017, 3:54:02 AM
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Shppy wrote:
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ciel289 wrote:
attacks already have enough more multiplier gems

for melee its melee physical/weapon ele dmg
for ranged its physical proj attack/weapon ele dmg


in most cases weapon ele damage isn't as great of a more multiplier as it looks. For it to be efficient, you need most of your damage to be converted to elemental, and if you do that you run into resistances that you don't have to deal with as physical and that severely diminish the usefulness of that high-looking more multiplier. What winds up happening with trying to optimize WED is you wind up giving yourself a pretty tooltip dps that's not actually nearly as good as it seems, because as soon as you run into anything with resists (i.e any boss or unique monster, many base types of monsters, and quite frequently rares/magics) you're losing 1/3 or more of your pretty-looking tooltip damage.

That is, unless you can convert to a single element so you can use penetration, or if you use inquisitor (which is crit, meaning that case is irrelevant to non-crit attackers). In the case of building for a single element, you can get around those extra resistances with penetration, but... well, in that case, you're going out of your way to get both conversion AND penetration just to get access to WED...

...Just look at the case of the guardians and shaper, who have 40% ele res. By going full conversion, you need to use a penetration gem just to bring them back down near zero (cuz with 80% less curse effect you're sure as hell not battling that with ele weakness and the like) at which point you're eating up a gem link just to make your *actual* dps accurately portray your tooltip dps. That's something that staying pure physical can do without using up any links. And it's pretty similar when dealing with other map bosses (who are generally at 30% ele res and have 60% less curse effect) or magics/rares/uniques with resist affixes. Or enemies that just implicitly have ele resists (like ALL breach rares, for example).


TL;DR: WED *looks* like a nice 'more' modifier, but in reality tends not to be so great for real dps, at least where it counts the most (against tough enemies that don't die in a hit or two). And with the damage not really being an advantage, and without being able to easily access ele status ailments as non-crit, going conversion-WED often is quite inefficient compared to the limited alternatives. Controlled Destruction affecting attacks would add another decent alternative (and reworking status ailments to not be guaranteed on crit while having more %chance to freeze/ignite/shock available would help make non-crit conversion less of a drag too, as they'd at least have the ailments to make up for the difficulty of facing resists).


you are understanding it WRONG

Spells have 1! more multiplier Gem for all spells and it has a drawback (reduced crit) and 1! additional more multiplier Gem for Ele Spells witch another even bigger drawback

its the same for attacks

Melee has it better it has 1(2 if you go Ci/ES) more multiplier gems with no drawback for physical dmg that scaled nearly all ele dmg attacks as well since its converted dmg most of the time AND 1 for Ele dmg again with no drawback

for ranged attacks the Physical Version has a drawback as well

Its fair atm (i´m not against tweaking the numbers a bit though) another gem WONT help melee you are already limited to 6links at max with enough options

the real problem is crit vs non crit
cirt just gives to many bonuses ON TOP OF better dmg
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torturo wrote:
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ciel289 wrote:

attacks already have enough more multiplier gems

for melee its melee physical/weapon ele dmg
for ranged its physical proj attack/weapon ele dmg


Not sure if serious...


just check the other posts adding another gem wont change anything
the existing gems are more than enough but need some tweaking in the numbers

the better option instead of touching the melee more multipliers is by adjusting the attacks semself and do something about fortiy (caster shouldnt be able to use it with just using a movementskill + dagger)
since Casters CAN use it the endgame seems to be balanced around active fortify making the effect if you have it meaningless and if you dont just straight up painfull

i´m not saying endgame is to hard or stuff like that since that discussion would get us nowhere and everyone should decide on their own if they like the way the game is balanced or not

nearly all non crit none double dipping builds need some love (melees a bit more than spells but even spells are underperforming without crit/double dipping) but that CANT be fixed with just adding another gem (even if you make the drawback cannot crit)
it simply doesnt solve anything

Phys builds have 1 single gem multiplier. One. Besides the bloodlust gem, which is a marvelous troll. And the melee physical damage on full life support, which description summs precisely the state of the phys builds.
Further, unless you pick one of the pseudo melee skills (which take their fix by other sources of more multiplier like conc effect/less duration etc), you are bound to splash + MS, which are both less in terms of raw damage.
If you choose RT in addition, it can subjectively count as yet another less multiplier, in comparison to crit builds.

Phys melee is in a terrible state, it just can't follow the power creep. Or requires a 200 ex weapon to achieve the same results the ele builds can squeeze from gems alone.

I do agree that more multiplier gems are not a good idea, but are yet another power creep in the pool. IMO it's just the splash & MS which require some attention, then plenty of forgotten useless skill may get brought back to the table.
But phys melee is in a really bad shape. If ggg's creativity is limited to designing "more" gem multipliers, I'm with it. Whatever, if it works. Anyway game's terribly balanced, who cares.

According to the ranged phys builds - remember their power is the projectile damage scaling everythng. They can live with a single "more" gem. Phys melee has no access to such a juicy mechanic.

Melee survivability, read class/archetype viability, is a completely different story. We are about the damage power, and classic phys melee skills are lacking it badly.
This is a buff © 2016

The Experts ™ 2017
Last edited by torturo on Apr 24, 2017, 6:19:53 AM

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